Nursing Academia - We Need New Blood! - page 4

The average age of academic nurse educators in the u.s. is 55.5 years. Meanwhile, the average age at which nurse faculty members retire is 62.5 years. it is not surprising, therefore, that at least... Read More

  1. Visit  cfaith profile page
    3
    llg thanks for this comment.
    "While some very qualified students have trouble getting into nursing school because the schools can't find enough clinical slots ... a lot of those slots are taken by schools who have very low admission standards. I talk to some students who are barely articulate and go to schools with bad reputations ... but there they are, occupying slots that could be used for more qualified students. The "industry" needs a good "shake out." We should all support our Boards of Nursing when they try to sanction and/or close down poorly performing schools -- of which there are many. That would make room for the good students."

    It was the lack of being able to screen students and the inablity to dismiss students like this which lead me to leave teaching nursing after nearly 13 years. The individual students such as those you discribe are now who I deal with as a nurse educator in orientation. I too believe myself to be young! I'm only 46 now and left the CC system some 100 years ago. I took a lower paying job just to escape the stress and long hours. I feel as if I broke even.

    Best of Luck to all Educators out there!
    nursel56, llg, and VickyRN like this.
  2. Visit  llg profile page
    3
    Quote from cfaith
    It was the lack of being able to screen students and the inablity to dismiss students like this which lead me to leave teaching nursing after nearly 13 years.
    I see this as one of the biggest problems with nursing education today. There are too many nursing students who don't belong in nursing -- and faculty members are not allowed to flunk them. Faculty members complain to me about this on a regular basis.

    We need to stop wasting our limited resources on such students -- and start prioritizing the needs of those who have a high likelihood of success as a nurse. That would help us make progress on a lot of problems within our profession.
    Purple_Scrubs, elkpark, and VickyRN like this.
  3. Visit  stephfy37 profile page
    4
    As a nurse for 22 years with years of experiences in various icu's, & community health; I was insulted when I applied for teaching position only to be told I had no teaching experience. I completed my MSN-Edu in 2009, 2011 I am not teaching because the universities don't perform mentoring or want to give me experience. I am very disappointed with the nursing teaching profession, they claim they need nurse educators but don't want to mentor the new nurse educator. Needless to say I am fed-up with hearing about the shortage of nursing faculty. Enough already!!
    Purple_Scrubs, hope3456, llg, and 1 other like this.
  4. Visit  VickyRN profile page
    0
    Quote from stephfy37
    As a nurse for 22 years with years of experiences in various icu's, & community health; I was insulted when I applied for teaching position only to be told I had no teaching experience. I completed my MSN-Edu in 2009, 2011 I am not teaching because the universities don't perform mentoring or want to give me experience. I am very disappointed with the nursing teaching profession, they claim they need nurse educators but don't want to mentor the new nurse educator. Needless to say I am fed-up with hearing about the shortage of nursing faculty. Enough already!!
    So sorry you had such a negative experience. I was very fortunate in my program, a very large baccalaureate nursing program in North Carolina, to be mentored for an entire year, once I became faculty within the program. My prior experience as a nursing instructor in an ADN community college program was not nearly as positive. I was not mentored at all, but just thrown into the classroom and into the clinical arena. Learning by the school of hard knocks is a rough way to go. I would much prefer to be mentored.
  5. Visit  CrunchRN profile page
    3
    I wouldn't worry about it. We are so over-producing nurses that a slow down of these for profit schools for lack of faculty would be great!
    hope3456, llg, and nurse15dc like this.
  6. Visit  Streamline2010 profile page
    4
    Quote from llg
    I see this as one of the biggest problems with nursing education today. There are too many nursing students who don't belong in nursing -- and faculty members are not allowed to flunk them. Faculty members complain to me about this on a regular basis.

    We need to stop wasting our limited resources on such students -- and start prioritizing the needs of those who have a high likelihood of success as a nurse. That would help us make progress on a lot of problems within our profession.

    Why can't you flunk them? Do they all keep getting passing grades in sprite of your best attempts, or what? >;D

    Nursing, as a profession, created its own problems for itself by fixating on some very rigid and antiquated concepts of what type of person "belongs" in nursing. I am a woman, I endured almost one full year of RN school, and although I began with great pride and great enthusiasm, I was completely disgusted and bored by it after about 9-10 months. I found the instructors and the administration to be boring, one-dimensional, holyrollers who, when you get right down to it, had lived a very, very constrained life of church, children, marriage, and nursing. I wanted to hit the ground running, have a very intense, efficient, and no-BS curriculum of how to do the job of Nurse. Vocational. Technical. Efficient. What I got was almost a year of lecture-blather that was a total waste of time (Honey, ahh cay-un read mah OWN textbooks, Bless Yor Haaart, Dear) so please stop with the boring hours of drone, and turn us loose to go home and study, thanks, 'k, 'Bye. And a meandering curriculum that was so chopped-up and nonsensical that all I can think, is the school wanted to pad and stretch out 15 months worth of training to 24 months, so as to get more billable hours.

    Oh, and they did flunk out a lot of students along the way. Nursing I got all the single moms who had to do their own parenting plus go to school and maybe work a job, too, as well as the usual party dolls who spent all of their break time on Facebook, and a few hapless men who, well, being men, just kind of wanted to know exactly when all of this blather was ev-ah going to cut to the chase, and said so. Nursing II got a lot of the average-intellect students who just were always kind of confused about what they were supposed to be learning (I was confused, too, but I memorize stuff well), and also cleared most over-age-45 students, and all the remaining guys except 4, and the people who really had to work to be able to pay for school. Oh, and most of the tatoo'd people, too. The class got a lot more homogenous and youthful and white and female and tatto-less after Nursing II. Nurs III, well, I didn't finish that due to "conducts" that consisted of one late care plan concept map, one missed clinical that the school had changed the date for and never notified me, and one conduct for my telling them exactly what I thought of the whole mess, including their exams that full 75% - 80% of the class could not pass.

    I think the people who say that nursing education needs to vastly increase the diversity of instructors, and also teach more practical skills are exactly right. I'm not sorry that I'm out of it. It's nice to go back to normal people and not be burdened by such an adversarial faculty and administration, anymore.

    I am a baby boomer, the very youngest edge of it, and nursing school bored me to the max. Women who have worked in nursing their whole lives seem to have tunnel vision. I know that I read in one of my books in Nursing I read that "nurses tend to socialize only with other nurses," "and nurses go home burned out and stressed out at the end of the day," etc. I read that in a textbook!, in my required reading, and the first thing I thought is: Well, I don't want that job.
    Sisyphus, cfaith, hope3456, and 1 other like this.
  7. Visit  joyouter profile page
    2
    Quote from nerdtonurse?
    Just because a person's good at something doesn't automatically make them a good teacher -- I've worked with people that were blindingly brilliant, but couldn't "dumb it down" enough to tell you how to make toast. Most of us with some initials after our names remember certain professors with fondness -- because the truly good ones were so rare.

    I personally think that the ability to teach is like the ability to lead -- you're either a leader or a teacher, or you're not. You can learn to be a boss or an instructor, but leaders and teachers are born, not made. And churning out a bunch of instructors who are going for the job because they're looking at summers, weekends and holidays off isn't going to help anybody (the equivalent of the people I went to nursing school with who wanted to be travel nurses and CRNAs, but couldn't pass A&P II).

    I also think we need to seriously look at what the BSN level classwork is. We're putting in a lot of "management" stuff, at least in the programs I've seen. Let people do what they are best at. If you want to be a manager, go get at MBA or a MPH. I think we need more psych, more patho, more "stuff" that will keep the patient alive at 3 am when you can't get a MD on the phone and your patient's crashing. I'd like to see classes that revolved around labs -- seeing what set of labs means what, not just "oh, Mr. J's K is 2.5. he'll be getting some riders," but what to look for in a patient with cancer that could mean it's mets'd to the bone, or that maybe you need to back off the Diprivan a little on a person who's lipid panel looks like A, B, or C. I can't even get someone to give me a straight and consistent answer on when a person needs to be on reverse isolation -- some talk numbers, some talk ratios of numbers.

    Sorry, it's been a rough week.
    Excellent points. Nursing education, management and development paradigms must adapt to the realities of today. Many nursing schools maintain a curriculum which is out of touch with today's needs. This does not mean that the traditional caring qne evidence based research approach has to be replaced. Rather the fact that the glass ceiling of senior nursing management and educators seemingly elect to keep that in place- why or why eat your young.! Bright, reflective, nurses with lots of EQ and oriented to the professional practice leave, possibly with foregone conclusions about a limited future. The politicization of nursing is one of the most damaging shifts imaginable, fostering unhappiness, punitive behaviours and bullying within the profession at all levels. We need to identify our weaknesses, address them,, learn how to correct them in order to be enabled to move past this dark side of nursing towards positive change and dynamics.
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  8. Visit  fantasyworld profile page
    5
    Quote from llg
    I see this as one of the biggest problems with nursing education today. There are too many nursing students who don't belong in nursing -- and faculty members are not allowed to flunk them. Faculty members complain to me about this on a regular basis.

    We need to stop wasting our limited resources on such students -- and start prioritizing the needs of those who have a high likelihood of success as a nurse. That would help us make progress on a lot of problems within our profession.
    I have 2 part time jobs. One at the bedside (4 days a week) and the other as a clinical instructor(3 days a week). I have always wanted to be a teacher but in 1978 when there was no financial aid for teaching majors I went into nursing. I have enjoyed many years in the profession but recently became frustrated with health care as a whole. I wanted to teach nursing but found out that in addition to paying for my MSN, I would be rewarded with a pay scale $7/ hr less than what I'm earning at my other job. I work the bedside job for financial reasons and teach clinical for my emotional well being. Since I see both sides of the coin, I think I bring a perspective to teaching of "being there in the trenches and understanding discrepancies between school and job realities".

    The above quoted comment is valid. Schools need to accept students to stay viable. A perspective student may present themselves to the interview with the ability to appear like a perfect candidate but then show their really not interested in nursing.... just a means to an end for their job hunt.

    The facility I teach for just had their NLN survey and their acceptance vs graduating #'s mattered quite a bit. Once a student is in, they're our problem. School financial aid and reimbursements were directly affected by these numbers.

    Clinical facilities are another problem. I've seen students from some schools assigned with a preceptor on a unit where the preceptor is paid to precept so when a group of students come in with their instructor, the staff aren't willing to work with them because they aren't getting paid.

    I work at my bedside job with a number of new nurses that feel it's beneath them to come out from behind the desk and touch patients. They say they were taught to be "in charge" and yet they don't know a rectal from a tympanic thermometer {exaggeration alert}, but you know what I mean.

    Health care is broken. Those making the rules are out of touch. When nurses voices are heard, then and only then can we fix this system.
    joyouter, llg, elkpark, and 2 others like this.
  9. Visit  hope3456 profile page
    1
    [QUOTE=Streamline2010;5945413]Why can't you flunk them? Do they all keep getting passing grades in sprite of your best attempts, or what? >;D

    GOOD ONE STREAMLINE!!! Pretty sure I was one of those students! Loved your post as well.

    I am not personally concerned about the ' upcoming shortage of nursing instructors' - apparently there was enough available to create the current 'glut' of new grads. My concern is that the 'powers that be' need to get currently (and recently) graduating students into nursing jobs where they gain relevant experience so they can pass it on. Not happening.

    IMHO the whole structure of nursing school needs to be revamped.
    Last edit by hope3456 on Dec 1, '11
    joyouter likes this.
  10. Visit  hope3456 profile page
    0
    Quote from llg
    I see this as one of the biggest problems with nursing education today. There are too many nursing students who don't belong in nursing -- and faculty members are not allowed to flunk them. Faculty members complain to me about this on a regular basis.

    We need to stop wasting our limited resources on such students -- and start prioritizing the needs of those who have a high likelihood of success as a nurse. That would help us make progress on a lot of problems within our profession.
    Upon further thought - I came back to this site to ask WHAT CONSTITUTES A NURSING STUDENT WHO 'DOESN'T BELONG IN NURSING?' How does one define such a student and how should they be 'weeded out?' Who should be the one to decide this? Who has the 'highest likelihood of success?' Failing students with out a good and consise reason is grounds for discrimination lawsuits.

    Yes I have met nurses who 'dont belong' IMHO, but I also have been labeled as such. I got acceptable grades in the classes but i will admit to having personality conflicts with the clinical instructors. As for the one I had the most conflict with ......i worked as a CNA on the weekends and a MDwas a post op after a bypass surgery - he worked at a neighboring hospital . I got to talking with him one night - told him i was in nursing school and where. He asked me if I had Iris as a teacher. OMG! He started mocking her, stating she 'bounces off walls,' and that she recently walked off the job after a dispute with another nurse - he didn't seem to like her. Maybe SHE was the one who 'didn't belong.' We both had a good laugh anyways.
  11. Visit  EDEduc8R profile page
    3
    Quote from mindlor
    Sadly though it seems to me that the younger folk coming up are a little less altuistic and a little more materialistic than many of us boomers. These young folk want the lexus, the 4000 sq foot house and the finer things in life. It is the "me" generation.
    I am 31 years old, have my MSN in Nursing Education, and am a hospital-based ED clinical educator. Not all "younger folk" who choose to work in hospital-based education are doing so out of greed. I am an ED educator because I am passionate about emergency nursing. Would I ever work in academia? Sure, if I could make enough to support my family. I am the sole income earner for my family. We live very modestly, but would still not be able to get by on what I would make at a university. Sometimes, the drive to earn a higher wage is based off of necessity, not greed.

    Please don't generalize younger generations. It is that exact mentality that turns a lot of younger nurses away from pursuing careers in nursing education. Why would they want to go work with people who think that because they are young they must be greedy, materialistc, and selfish?
    joyouter, Purple_Scrubs, and VickyRN like this.
  12. Visit  llg profile page
    4
    Quote from hope3456
    Upon further thought - I came back to this site to ask WHAT CONSTITUTES A NURSING STUDENT WHO 'DOESN'T BELONG IN NURSING?' How does one define such a student and how should they be 'weeded out?' Who should be the one to decide this? Who has the 'highest likelihood of success?' Failing students with out a good and consise reason is grounds for discrimination lawsuits.
    Of course it is difficult to devise a system of grading that is fair. But let's face it, that's one of the important functions of a school of nursing. It is the school's job to attempt to teach the student -- and then evaluate whether or not the student has learned the material and will be able to perform adequately in practice. That's why new graduates are not allowed to take the NCLEX until an approved school "endorses" them. When you pay your tuition, you are not only paying for the teaching ... you are paying for the credential the school offers -- the endorsement from the school that says you have have mastered the material.

    If a school does not evaluate student performance and prevent poor performers from getting a license, then the school is not doing its job.

    Here are a few examples of what I mean when I say a student should be flunked out of a nursing program:

    1. Students who are so inarticulate that they struggle to carry on a conversation with me. They can't organize their thoughts, ask questions, explain their own ideas, etc. They speak only in phrases and a collection of grunts and meaningless sounds.

    2. Students whose reading level is not at a high school level -- much less at a college level. They can't read a simple policy or procedure (or set of directions) and understand what they are being told to do.

    3. Students whose math skills (and logical reasoning ability) is so poor that they can't do basic intakes and outputs -- much less med or IV calculations.

    4. Students whose maturity and sense of responsibility is so minimal that they don't do homework, prepare for class, etc. -- and they don't feel any sense of responsibility for meeting the patients' needs. They just do what seems fun to them.

    I am very qualified to make decisions about student progression. I have taught undergraduate students, RN-BSN students, and MSN students. However, I have spent most of my career working in Nursing Professional Development. I've coordinated orientation programs and other staff development programs for 24 years -- trying to take new grads and turn them into functioning professionals. Yes, I'd say I am very qualfied to evaluate the prospects of a nursing student and making judgments about whether they should receive a passing grade for a course or not.

    But unfortunately, some schools won't give failing grades because they want the student to take more courses and pay more money. Other schools are concerned about their acceptance/retention numbers. But I say ... If they have a problem with poor performance and/or attrition, they should revise their admissions criteria and improve the quality of their teaching. Don't just keep low admission standards and them pass the students to the next level regardless of their performance level.
    MandaRN94, mystory, nursel56, and 1 other like this.
  13. Visit  nursel56 profile page
    1
    Ilg - I'm beginning to think that even those "for profit" schools are overlooking issues that they were not in the past. I went to a for profit LVN school many years ago. We had a small group, with some real diverse characters (I mean that in a good way). One of the students was a really sweet person who alluded to but didn't specify prior health problems. All she said was that she wanted to be a nurse because of the wonderful nurses who had taken care of her.

    She was intelligent, but I'd say she just seemed "off" in a lot of small ways that created a worrisome picture. When she talked she shook visibly, glanced all over the place instead of making eye contact, and other nervous mannerisms in the classroom, before we started our clinicals. She wasn't poorly groomed, but her clothes never fit right. The instructors worked with her for several months, but after a few weeks of clinical they let her go from the program. We all felt horrible about it but we knew that despite her intelligence and kind nature she couldn't have functioned effectively as a nurse.

    I believe they refunded all of her tuition money and suggested she may try again at some future point.

    It sounds like by what you are saying they would've let her finish and then be crushed when she couldn't sustain employment as a licensed nurse. We hear for profit schools bashed pretty often here, but I have to say they were not always like that.
    VickyRN likes this.


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