What happens if we DON'T recommend nursing as a career?

Mijourney · Sep 23, 2000

Originally posted by PINKYE1:
Nursedude,
Hear hear!! Which makes it even worse when patients tend to take me and my peers for granted and see us as pillowfluffers and pillbearers. I found out in my first job in a hospital a few years ago that nursing care was covered in the patient's bill as part of room and board! This is true. Now, here I am BSN, BA and BS and 5 classes short of an MPH and my salary is part of room and board? Is that like the complimentary stationery in the hotel room? We nurses need to rally and demand our recognition as professionals vice window dressing. At the same time, we need to act professionally. It is difficult to support a colleague who reports for their shift late, is lazy, not a team player and may actually be a lousy nurse. Comments???

Hi PinkyE1. I second your post.

Overland1, RN · Oct 2, 2000

Nursedude, et al,

I agree that many nurses do it for reasons other than money. Many of us drive long distances to and from work each day just to do what we enjoy doing.

Heck, I could probably make more money outside of Nursing, and have better hours, but am not ready to give up on it yet. Maybe when my back gives out I will realize that a change is needed.

I often recommend Nursing as a career, but only with caveats. I warn the new people about the stuff that some nurses pull on each other (i.e., 'older'/more senior nurses making life difficult for the new nurse , etc.). I tell new nurses to keep their options open and to constantly "network" and be aware of better things out there. On the other hand, I am an advocate of longevity within one place of employment, if that place warrants (and is worthy of) same.

I left a hospital that had an administration that is slowly running the place into the ground, and started last May at a hospital that specializes in a large number of cardiac patients. I also made this change because I wanted to learn more, and I have been learning a lot more (clinically and otherwise).

I came into Nursing from a business background, so I find the problems (they are problems, not "issues") very frustrating. I plan to hang in there a while longer, but will do so with extreme caution. I, too, need to make a living and support a house, a car, myself, and all that goes with those things.

LaurieCRNP2002, MSN, RN, APRN · Oct 2, 2000

To all:

I have to agree with Nursedude, Bunky and Jerry---we deserve to make a decent living. I think nursing can be one of the most rewarding professions, but just because you feel you have a "calling" doesn't mean you don't have the right to earn a decent living, especially if you are supporting a family.

(Originally posted by Nursedude)

>Nurses are NOT servants, we are prof

essionals who are worth our weight in gold.

Amen, Nursedude, to that! Funny how while our work is very beneficial to society as a whole, the $$ we make does not reflect that. And professional athletes are constantly trying to "one-up" each other to see who can get the best salary packages, which of course are in the millions. All that $$ for hitting a ball or slapping a puck into a net, or throwing a ball into a round hoop? I just don't get it!

(Originally posted by Bunky)

>. Don't take offence at that Nursedude, but only butt kissers, "leave your conscience at the door", "amnesia" victim types need apply for those jobs. Nurse Managers and Supervisors who actually stand up for their staff soon get beaten down by higher ups due to budgeting issues.

I totally agree, Bunky! God forbid a middle manager actually stand up for his/her staff! While a manager such as Nursedude would be a salvation for the staff (because he would advocate for them), he would be a PIA in the eyes of the upper management types who have NO CLUE as to how to care for a patient (or in the cases of RN's with their MBA's, have been away from the bedside too long...same net effect). I hope you don't take offense at my remarks, Nursedude. I think it's great that you're vocal about your feelings and are not afraid to express them. When my patients ask me how many patients I have, or if it's busy, I answer them honestly. The way I see it, patients have a right to know why it's taking you, the RN, 20-30 mins to help them to the bathroom when there's no aide and you have a patient that is on the bell for their pain medication Q 2 hours on the dot, and another patient who may be a little confused, etc, etc. I think you all get my drift. As far as the "growing risks" which Mijourney alluded to in her post, this is what makes me fear for my license at times---being forced to care for 7 acute tele patients, ranging from fresh MI's, CVA', post-angios, arrhythmias of all kinds. Of course, the risk management people tell the RN's that "you're covered under the hospital's policy". My feeling is that when something goes bad (and we all know it has, and will), administration will find a way to change the "policy" and say you didn't follow it---therefore leaving the RN hanging out to dry :-(.

It has left me very skeptical of nursing management---I know why they won't stand up for us, it's because they're under pressure from their bosses, all of whom have that "profits before patients" mentality and manage to brainwash the middle managers into adopting that attitude as well.

Thanks for listening,this was a long one! :-)

Laurie, RN

lita1857 · Oct 2, 2000

Nursedude.. your my hero! You say it like it is, thank God the honesty is refreshing!!!Any way I am not gonna hit my head on the wall, THEY(HMO's/Admin/JQ Public) DON'T...and see what happens....where have all the GOOD nurses gone?where they are VALUED and COMPENSATED!!!Supply and demand...do you want an RN who is TOP notch??? or will you take who ever? Let's ask the CEO's of hospital"s etc who they want taking care of themselves or family..they can't have me, they can't have my IV skills(too bad REALLY good)they can't have my ED experience or my nursing experience, I won't be the one to go over lab results/tests etc "like a hawk"I will not be the one to take time to listen/assess/educate and inform so you feel some what able to make decisions.I will not be the one to help you ease into the world safely or help you leave gently...and why not? You(HMO's/Admin/CEO's) didn't think I was valuable but I am to MY family. So let them live with their choices!

oramar · Oct 2, 2000

Originally posted by lita1857:
Nursedude.. your my hero! You say it like it is, thank God the honesty is refreshing!!!Any way I am not gonna hit my head on the wall, THEY(HMO's/Admin/JQ Public) DON'T...and see what happens....where have all the GOOD nurses gone?where they are VALUED and COMPENSATED!!!Supply and demand...do you want an RN who is TOP notch??? or will you take who ever? Let's ask the CEO's of hospital"s etc who they want taking care of themselves or family..they can't have me, they can't have my IV skills(too bad REALLY good)they can't have my ED experience or my nursing experience, I won't be the one to go over lab results/tests etc "like a hawk"I will not be the one to take time to listen/assess/educate and inform so you feel some what able to make decisions.I will not be the one to help you ease into the world safely or help you leave gently...and why not? You(HMO's/Admin/CEO's) didn't think I was valuable but I am to MY family. So let them live with their choices!

Lita, tell me more about yourself. I really liked your post. What are you doing if they can't have you? I also believe that the best and brightest are being driven out, everything you said is true.

sonnie · Oct 3, 2000

I see nursedude and his cohorts are at it again. Instead of whinning and bitching about what is wrong with nursing today what steps are you taking to make it better?? What's that I hear?? NOTHING????? Any idiot can complain and I hope you all leave nursing because I don't want to work with you or beside you. You can not be trusted. Yes, nursing has problems, yes we could all stand to earn more and no one likes to work overtime if you don't have to. What I have found is that those who complain about these things the most are the ones who call in sick at the last minute, and the most likely to complain if they are asked to stay. Please remember the patients do not choose when they will be sick, nor can they heal themsevles by 5pm so we can all go home happy. I'm sure they would if it was possible. Many patients have told me of the increased rudeness in nurses and nurses aides. Yes we work hard and sometimes shorthanded but that is not the patient's fault nor should they be made to feel that way!!! Talk to your management team, show them how improving customer care [patient care]can improve profits, put it in their terms $$$$$ they will listen or they too will be out of work. JUST DON'T WHINE!!!! THAT IS THE MOST UNPROFESSIONAL THING THAT CAN BE DONE!!! Many other college educated people are making less than most RN's are their jobs any less important?? On another board I made the comment that if you wanted to earn more money than you were worth to become a professional ball player. That comment still stands. We as a society need to quit paying millions to our entertainers and shift that money to our teachers, nurses, MDs, and other people who save lives each day. So next time you go to a basketball game and pay 80 - 100 dollars a seat ask yourself what am I really getting? Nobody seems to complain about ticket prices but every one complains about medical costs. Go figure!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by sonnie (edited October 02, 2000).]

nursedude · Oct 3, 2000

Originally posted by sonnie:
I see nursedude and his cohorts are at it again. Instead of whinning and bitching about what is wrong with nursing today what steps are you taking to make it better?? What's that I hear?? NOTHING????? Any idiot can complain and I hope you all leave nursing because I don't want to work with you or beside you. You can not be trusted. Yes, nursing has problems, yes we could all stand to earn more and no one likes to work overtime if you don't have to. What I have found is that those who complain about these things the most are the ones who call in sick at the last minute, and the most likely to complain if they are asked to stay. Please remember the patients do not choose when they will be sick, nor can they heal themsevles by 5pm so we can all go home happy. I'm sure they would if it was possible. Many patients have told me of the increased rudeness in nurses and nurses aides. Yes we work hard and sometimes shorthanded but that is not the patient's fault nor should they be made to feel that way!!! Talk to your management team, show them how improving customer care [patient care]can improve profits, put it in their terms $$$$$ they will listen or they too will be out of work. JUST DON'T WHINE!!!! THAT IS THE MOST UNPROFESSIONAL THING THAT CAN BE DONE!!! Many other college educated people are making less than most RN's are their jobs any less important?? On another board I made the comment that if you wanted to earn more money than you were worth to become a professional ball player. That comment still stands. We as a society need to quit paying millions to our entertainers and shift that money to our teachers, nurses, MDs, and other people who save lives each day. So next time you go to a basketball game and pay 80 - 100 dollars a seat ask yourself what am I really getting? Nobody seems to complain about ticket prices but every one complains about medical costs. Go figure!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by sonnie (edited October 02, 2000).]

Gee Sonnie....And you claim that "me and my cohorts whine"?

JenBSN · Oct 3, 2000

I agree with mojority of the comments posted. You should love your job, but you should also be paid well for your job. I did not go to school for 4 and a half years to be paid squat. Period. I have a good degree and a damn good education, I should be paid accordingly. However, having said all of this, isn't it hard to bargain for more money when we are one of the only professions that recognize Associate and Bachelor degree programs as the same. I mean absoultley NO disrespect to ADN-RN's, this is just my opinion. In order to get the respect and money we all deserve, I feel it is neccessary to seperate CNA's, LPN's, ADN's, BSN's, annd ARNP's. Unless, we as nurses start to accept the fact that there ARE differences in ALL of us, we will never get anywhere. My education is different than that of an ADN. I went to school for 2 more years. . . and yes, clinically, I am just as capable as an ADN (I worked as a SNT throughout nursing school). Those extra years of school allowed me to be taught things in more depth and also learn management skills. So I must argue that I should earn more an hour. Respectfully, ARNP's go to school for 2 more years than I do, they learn more. . . thus are paid more. Get my point? Again, I truley mean No disrespect to any ADN, and I do believe that they do and excellent job, but. . .

Anyways, my point is that we as nurses need to take charge and demand more money for what we do, at ALL levels. Remember, there is power in numbers. . . and nurses make up an overwhelming majority of the hospital staff. So with that, quite whinning and start demanding. We deserve it, and if we stand TOGETHER, we can get it.

sonnie · Oct 4, 2000

Originally posted by JenBSN:
I agree with mojority of the comments posted. You should love your job, but you should also be paid well for your job. I did not go to school for 4 and a half years to be paid squat. Period. I have a good degree and a damn good education, I should be paid accordingly. However, having said all of this, isn't it hard to bargain for more money when we are one of the only professions that recognize Associate and Bachelor degree programs as the same. I mean absoultley NO disrespect to ADN-RN's, this is just my opinion. In order to get the respect and money we all deserve, I feel it is neccessary to seperate CNA's, LPN's, ADN's, BSN's, annd ARNP's. Unless, we as nurses start to accept the fact that there ARE differences in ALL of us, we will never get anywhere. My education is different than that of an ADN. I went to school for 2 more years. . . and yes, clinically, I am just as capable as an ADN (I worked as a SNT throughout nursing school). Those extra years of school allowed me to be taught things in more depth and also learn management skills. So I must argue that I should earn more an hour. Respectfully, ARNP's go to school for 2 more years than I do, they learn more. . . thus are paid more. Get my point? Again, I truley mean No disrespect to any ADN, and I do believe that they do and excellent job, but. . .
Anyways, my point is that we as nurses need to take charge and demand more money for what we do, at ALL levels. Remember, there is power in numbers. . . and nurses make up an overwhelming majority of the hospital staff. So with that, quite whinning and start demanding. We deserve it, and if we stand TOGETHER, we can get it.

JenBSN,

How can you say that your education is better or more advanced when you take the same licencing tests with the same questions as ADNs? I have worked with and trained ADNs, BSNs, and Diploma nurses. BSN graduates generally to concerned about the social aspects of patient care while the ADN, and Diploma nurses are busy actually taking care of the patient. Skill wise BSN grads are lost, it normally takes them 3-6 months of extra orientation to be effective on the floor. This I attribute to the lack of clinical experience combined with the demographics of who actually goes to what type of school. Most of what you are saying is a parroting of organizations who strive to beat down nurses by turning them against one another. Historically BSNs have had the lowest of the NCLEX scores. (NCLEX WEB SITE)As long as we all take the same boards and ADNs and Diploma nurses pass more frequently and with higher scores than our BSN collegues then I will consider us all equal and base the competency of each nurse on his/her actions.

sonnie

rncountry · Oct 4, 2000

This has all been interesting reading. Nursedude I love you, your a hoot and I always enjoy what you write, however are you willing to work to try to make changes? To JenBSN, must be awfully proud of that BSN aren't you? I see you were indoctrinated well in your course, I would like to remind you that I passed the NCLEX too, and I did not have to have a 4 year degree to do it. Comments like yours do not advance any causes that nurses have, all they do is put wedges between nurses, I would put your BSN up against the diploma nurse any day. They had more clinical time then you ever dreamed of. I am an ADN nurse and I truly take offense at what you said. ADN nurses are good but... but what? Why is it necessary to feel like you must degrade another nurse that works as hard as you do, that does the same patient care that you do, that puts in the same overtime that you do etc...? Yet you DESERVE more pay because you have a higher degree. What do you do for the patient that is ever so much better that you should be paid any better? Some management classes? Does that make you better able to deliver appropriate patient care or only make you more suspectible to the company line? I have never posted anything that could be is rude in nature, but what you said was offensive and uncalled for. You should be paid better simply because of degree, but the ADN who does the same job doesn't deserve what you do because of their lack of the BSN. It would make me laugh if I did not think you seriously believed it!

sonnie · Oct 4, 2000

nursedude

did I hit a nerve????

nursedude · Oct 4, 2000

sonnie,

nope, no nerve struck. I just find it ironic that you make a post about "me and my cohorts" bitc***g and whining and in the very same post you do the same dam* thing? -Typical nurse style don't you think?

rncountry,

as I have replied to you before in another thread I am doing something about "it". First, I quit working as a nurse- I refuse to allow some hosp administrators/ insurance executives to take advantage of my skills so that they can make big profit$. Also, I started my own patient advocacy business. In addition to those two things I am very vocal with most everyone I come in contact with. I try to tell people what is really going on in healthcare, what is going on in hospitals, how their family doctors are paid not only with capitated dollars but also in bonus money when they utilize healthcare services less etc, etc, etc...

Quite frankly, I think it's too late for nursing. There really isn't much anyone can do about it. Nursing is no longer percieved as a profession- at least by the folks who run healthcare. Instead, nursing is percieved by them (hosp admins/ins execs) as overhead, a strain on profit and revenue... To me, that is the writing on the wall- it's plain as day.

As far as "doing something about it" goes- I really don't think anyone on this board is doing anything about "it" by posting here. All anyone does here is basically vent and share thoughts, experience and opinions and some folks come here to accuse others of bitc***g and whining and then in the same breath they turn around and do the same. I think of this posting board as the "nurses station" where we come together and talk, document, put charts etc. And then there is real life -"the unit". That part is not on these boards- that is where the difference is made. That is why I refuse to do nursing anymore- It's bullsh** When people ask me "Why did you leave nursing?" I tell them exactly why... That is where I believe I make the biggest difference...