Practice intramuscular injection students on each other, Australia - page 3

by mumlauf

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Practice intramuscular injection with nurse students on each other is standard way how to teach/learn intramuscular injection in Europe - UK/Germany/Etc. Of course only with students agreement. Please help me if you have... Read More


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    I am trying to understand why an article by used on needle stick injuries that has some leaning towards double gloving and more education on infectious diseases gives any evidence to back up claims that it is okay to direct nursing students to give IM injections to each other. Or because nurses Practise drawing up and giving on devices such as 'oranges' they have more needle stick injuries! Can you explain the connection?
    Last edit by ceridwyn on Mar 13, '12
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    You suggested research on this topic and I explained that there are so many uncertainties that it is hard to get some relevant results...

    Especially the part: "According to the policy of the NHS in the UK, it is compulsory when staff sustain a needle-stick injury to report the incident [3]. However, evidence from the US suggests that more than half of all sharps-related injuries are not reported [1]. Poor reporting of sharps-related injuries reveals a failure to appreciate the potential consequences of such injuries [4]. Rates of detection are also low, for example, only 11% of glove perforations were detected by the physician in a study investigating the use of blunt needles during obstetrical laceration repair surgeries [5]."

    And this is only small part of the whole IMI thing.

    It is much easier to use simple logic. More practice = better results. Thats it, why you want to do some research about it?

    Off course the best is to go gradually and practice, you can use orange at the start, better some simulator, then under supervision practice on patients... or you can practice under supervision voluntarily with other students on each other, especially when all your teachers before let you prick only oranges and you have no idea how to give IMI to real people, you have no confidence or worse, you are scared of it. And there are only few days left to finish your studies and after that you are on your own and you can only hope that somebody will help you later.

    I'm not going to continue in this direction because there is no point in it. I got your opinion that "doing anything that is evasive, is not done to fellow students". Thank you.

    Also the most important is what I wrote before - schools/universities leave this method because of liability reasons. The trend is that for schools/universities/teachers is simply easier to let students prick oranges, not patients or even each other. This way it is safe. And students? They will learn later on patients without supervision or maybe with some help, who cares, they can always pay to insurance companies to protect them if some patient get injured, that is how the business works.
    Last edit by mumlauf on Mar 13, '12
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    I'm horrified to hear this. There are so many risks and potential legal implications for doing invasive procedures by students to other students.
    When I was training we would transfer each other and position each other in a bed so that we had an understanding of what the experience was like for a patient but we never ever did any kind of practice that involve invasive procedurs.
    ceridwyn likes this.
  4. 0
    So I guess you are horrified to give IM to patients because there are so many risks and potential legal implications, right? Do you actually know what intramuscular injection is? Do you know that everybody (or at least 99,9 % of Australians) got IM at least once but usually many more times and guess what? We are still living. It is not drilling into your brain. But yes, you can live your dream in the world with no invasive procedures.
    Last edit by mumlauf on Mar 27, '12
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    Quote from mumlauf
    So I guess you are horrified to give IM to patients because there are so many risks and potential legal implications, right? Do you actually know what intramuscular injection is? Do you know that everybody (or at least 99,9 % of Australians) got IM at least once but usually many more times and guess what? We are still living. It is not drilling into your brain. But yes, you can live your dream in the world with no invasive procedures.
    Maybe my training was different to yours but there were 30 in a class and there is no way a lecture would have the time to supervise every student administer an IM injection or any other procedure. When were training to draw blood we trained on plastic dummies and then we had one on one supervision by a lecture on that dummy before we could take blood on a human. This process took 3 weeks to clear everyone.
    We trained on dummies for the IM injections and it was amazing the amount of times the site of the injection was incorrect and the guage of needle was incorrect. This was after paper theory and DVD demonstation.
    So thank you for your combative response. I'm sure you would be first to shout from the roof tops if there was an adverse event from an IM or other invasive procedure done by and person whose only training was that they were able to inject a fellow student unsupervised.
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    Please READ the posts above if you want judge my opinion about teaching IM, thank you. Beacause you would know that I have nothing against paper theory, DVDs, dummies, oranges or whatever, nobody is speaking about students doing IM each other without training and without supervision etc. Nonsenses like that there is no way a lecturer would have the time to supervise every student to do IM but he has time to supervise every student one by one on dummy are not good arguments, sorry.

    Anyway thank you for sharing your experience in this second post - that is what I was asking for. I am sure the way you have learned is good and would be glad if all students have these circumstances.
    Last edit by mumlauf on Mar 27, '12
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    Whilst at university, I asked why we didn't practice on each other. The reason given was the risk of transmission of blood borne viruses by poor practice, and also insurance. Insurance wise - if something went wrong, the university could be sued.
    We practised on a sponge that was COMPLETELY not like human skin in any way, shape or form.
  8. 0
    Thank you for your experience and for asking in advance. Yes, as I wrote before:

    Quote from mumlauf
    schools/universities leave this method because of liability reasons. The trend is that for schools/universities/teachers is simply easier to let students prick oranges, not IM to patients or even each other. This way it is safe. And students? They will learn later on patients without supervision or maybe with some help, who cares, they can always pay to insurance companies to protect them if some patient get injured, that is how the business works.
  9. 0
    I have done all my training in Australia. I started at TAFE doing my Diploma and am now at Uni doing my Degree. At neither place did we practise on each other in regards to injections.

    I for one would certainly not be keen for someone to practice on me. A lot of the students have no idea what they are doing and many did not end up continuing or passing. I also would not have been comfortable injecting someone just for the practice. I don't think that unnecessary puncturing of the skin and destruction of cells is something to be taken lightly. Also the equipment that we practise with has more often than not passed its expiry date.

    When we did inject actual patients we had an experienced nurse right beside us and most people watched this nurse perform the procedure first before trying it themselves. Also the patient always has the option to refuse or to ask for someone else if they are not comfortable.
  10. 0
    Quote from Sifty
    I for one would certainly not be keen for someone to practice on me. A lot of the students have no idea what they are doing and many did not end up continuing or passing. I also would not have been comfortable injecting someone just for the practice. I don't think that unnecessary puncturing of the skin and destruction of cells is something to be taken lightly. Also the equipment that we practise with has more often than not passed its expiry date.

    When we did inject actual patients we had an experienced nurse right beside us and most people watched this nurse perform the procedure first before trying it themselves. Also the patient always has the option to refuse or to ask for someone else if they are not comfortable.
    Yes, voluntarism (option to refuse) is important and serious thing with this kind of practice. Especially if you are talking about conditions with expired equipment, which was definitely not in this case - everything was double checked, under supervision of two (or three) experienced nurses etc. Thank you very much for sharing your experience.


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