Religion Needed to be a Good Nurse? - page 3

We just covered a spiritituality/religion lesson in our BSN course and the instructor (religious) came out and said good nurses had spirituality and would be there for whatever spiritual needs the PT... Read More

  1. Visit  VivaLasViejas profile page
    3
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Religion and Spirituality are not completely different - they may not be the same, but they are related. Religion is a subset of spirituality - but not the whole sum. Being religious, from my viewpoint, is the same as being spiritual. But being spiritual might not be the same as being religious.

    mjlrn97 - your definitions of spirituality and religion above are a quite negative and inaccurate account of religion. You state you are spiritual - that you just don't subscribe to the structure of the church, and then you basically say that the view that God reigns supreme in someone’s life is a 'rule of man' to constrain behavior by using external controls. In one place, you dismiss organized religion as the culprit of leaving your faith. In another, you seem to allege that God is the creation of man. In claiming that you weren’t knocking it, in fact, you were.

    I completely disagree with your condescending take on my religious beliefs.. My worship to God provides an internal pacing to my life. If you look at most religions – they are structured like pyramids – the very peak of religion is the worship of God. The base of religion, however, is a moral code for interaction with each other. It is no accident that murder and theft are sins. Are we being religious when we outlaw these things? Or are we acknowledging the obvious: that many key tenets of religion have to do with society building.

    My religion can be summed up in the view expressed by Jesus: Honor God above all else and as a close second, love (phileo – not the kind of love extended to family and mates – but brotherly love – caring about the best interests of) your neighbors.

    Whether you agree with religion or not – it is organized religion that has set the moral compass necessary to create society – whether you are talking about Christianity, pagan rites, or the medicine men of Early America. It’s a disservice to dismiss that as only being needed by the weak to have external controls governing their lives.

    Marx said ‘Religion is the opiate of the masses’. But he was an idiot. Religion is the glue that has massed us together. And as a result, it is the glue of our history.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    WOW.........I never thought a simple statement of mine could be turned into something even I don't recognize.

    For one thing, I am being accused of attacking an individual's religious beliefs
    when I don't even know for sure what they are. I apologize if I offended anyone, but it needs to be understood that these are MY beliefs, not anyone else's, and how that can be interpreted as a personal attack is beyond me.

    For another: I can't imagine where anything I've said could possibly be construed as meaning I believe God is a creation of man. I stated very clearly that I believe RELIGION is a creation of man........God was there before any of it, or any of us, ever existed. End of story.

    And frankly, I don't much appreciate being told what I believe---or that it's wrong---by someone who does not know me. This is exactly what gives 'religion' a bad name, IMHO, and it's why I've become such a skeptic. No one has the right to judge me except God, and He knows me well enough to understand that I will continue to question everyone's authority but His.

    'Nuff said.
  2. Visit  talaxandra profile page
    0
    Like many other posters, I believe that it is important to respect your the religious and/or spiritual beliefs of your patients, regardless of your own.
    I think that having faith yourself can sometimes make it easier to cope with the stressful aspects of nursing practice, but there are many other things that can also help.
    In 16 years of nursing I have never had need to discuss my own beliefs with my patients - I don't think they're any of their business, nor relevant to my practice. This has not been an issue, at leat thus far. It's not about me, it's about the patient, and the family.
  3. Visit  talaxandra profile page
    2
    Timothy, I didn't see any of what you said in what Marla wrote - she said that spirituality and religion are "very different", not "completely different", and that's a difference of magnitude.
    Perhaps what you were reacting to was her perception that spirituality is more adult/mature, and less narrow, than religion. It makes sense that everyone believes that their belief system is the best, at least for them. While this opinion is clearly antithetical to yours, that doesn't in any way invalidate your opinion or your beliefs.
    Rather than this turning into a discussion/debate/flame war over religion, can we return to the topic?
    PS For those interested in religion-themed flame wars, I direct you to www.beliefnet.com - awesome site for pretty much everything about faith
    Last edit by talaxandra on Oct 28, '05
    badmamajama and ChelseaLynn1623 like this.
  4. Visit  grannynurse FNP student profile page
    0
    Quote from talaxandra
    Timothy, I didn't see any of what you said in what Marla wrote - she said that spirituality and religion are "very different", not "completely different", and that's a difference of magnitude.
    Perhaps what you were reacting to was her perception that spirituality is more adult/mature, and less narrow, than religion. It makes sense that everyone believes that their belief system is the best, at least for them. While this opinion is clearly antithetical to yours, that doesn't in any way invalidate your opinion or your beliefs.
    Rather than this turning into a discussion/debate/flame war over religion, can we return to the topic?
    PS For those interested in religion-themed flame wars, I direct you to www.beliefnet.com - awesome site for pretty much everything about faith
    I consider myself a good, faithful practicing Catholic and a spiritual person. However I do not practice my religion at the bedside of any patient I have taken care of because I do not feel it is appropriate. Nor do I feel it is appropriate for a nurse to pray for a patient, especially when not asked. I have offered to get clergy for anyone who has asked. We have never been given the right to impose our beliefs on others. Religion and the degree of spirituality a person pocess is strictly a private matter and should never be imposed on another human being, no matter how good one's intentions may be.

    Grannynurse
  5. Visit  nursemike profile page
    2
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA

    Marx said 'Religion is the opiate of the masses'. But he was an idiot. Religion is the glue that has massed us together. And as a result, it is the glue of our history.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    I confess, I haven't taken the trouble to look it up, but I was shocked, years ago, to learn that long before Marx, Thomas Jefferson described religion as the opium of the masses.
    I wasn't going to weigh in on this, but I couldn't let the assertion that Marx was an idiot go unchallenged. Yes, I'll agree, I think he was wrong in many ways, but wrong does not equal stupid. Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics, but he wasn't an idiot.

    As for the apparent dichotomy between religion and spirituality, I would like to clarify the issue by muddying the waters with another comparison, between personal religion and public religion. I don't mean to disparage organized religion--throughout history, many fine people have practiced organized religion. Rev. King. The Dalai Lama (for whom I named my Himalayan cat, Dolly Llama). Mother Theresa. St. Francis of Asissi. My late Grandmother.
    But it's all too easy to cite the horrors of organized religion, the various crusades and jihads, Inquisitions and witch hunts...the crucifixion of Jesus was the act of an organized religion. If we try to fit the religion of the Pharisees under the same tent as the faith of Bernadette, we end up with not the opiate of the masses, but the mescaline.
    The key distinction, I think, is between those who perform religion as a formal (empty) ritual and those who experience a personal relationship with whatever God or god they worship. Or, from another angle, a pocketful of stones doesn't make you spiritual. You can sit under a pyramid until the cows come home, but if your heart isn't open to the universe, it's just silly. You can pray in the town square until you're blue in the face, but if you don't love God and your fellow man, you're just making noise.
    What I'm getting at, in my usual verbose manner, is that we shouldn't compare the heartfelt faith of the devoutly religious to the trendy blather of feckless new-agers, or the life-long questing of the deeply spiritual to the hollow rantings of a t.v. evangelist.
    I'm not sure how to tie this in to nursing. I do know that my old tomcat, Peaches, likes to bathe and cuddle and play with kittens, and I'm pretty sure he's a heathern. Or maybe his faith is so absolute that I can't begin to imagine it. Hmm. At any rate, I don't think caring, compassion, empathy, and love are the sole domain of any faith, persuasion, gender, or species, and those are the qualities (along with at least some vague idea what you're doing) that make us nurses.

    Of course, it's pretty obvious that Republicans can't be good nurses.
    badmamajama and ChelseaLynn1623 like this.
  6. Visit  Agnus profile page
    0
    This is your instructors opinon, not a statement of fact. Even instructors are entitled to express an opinion.

    It seems you are both on the same tract from what you said in your post.

    She said you need to be spiritual inorder to meet the spiritual needs of the patient no matter what they are.

    You stated that you feel you are able to meet thier spiritual needs without compromizing your own position.

    It kind of sounds like the samething. Sometimes we are on the same sheet of music and don't even know it.


    I would not worry. From your post it sounds like you have the right perspecive. You help others without compromizing your needs. Sounds like good nursing to me. Even good living.
  7. Visit  sbic56 profile page
    2
    All that is needed to be a good nurse is the desire to be just that. Why would a belief system be a pre-qualifier for nursing?

    And, I agree that religion is more often like opium than glue. All major wars have been caused by religions; not exactly a way to bring people together. But, like opium, it can make you feel good.
    badmamajama and ChelseaLynn1623 like this.
  8. Visit  ZASHAGALKA profile page
    0
    Quote from mjlrn97
    WOW.........I never thought a simple statement of mine could be turned into something even I don't recognize.

    For one thing, I am being accused of attacking an individual's religious beliefs
    when I don't even know for sure what they are. I apologize if I offended anyone, but it needs to be understood that these are MY beliefs, not anyone else's, and how that can be interpreted as a personal attack is beyond me.

    For another: I can't imagine where anything I've said could possibly be construed as meaning I believe God is a creation of man. I stated very clearly that I believe RELIGION is a creation of man........God was there before any of it, or any of us, ever existed. End of story.

    And frankly, I don't much appreciate being told what I believe---or that it's wrong---by someone who does not know me. This is exactly what gives 'religion' a bad name, IMHO, and it's why I've become such a skeptic. No one has the right to judge me except God, and He knows me well enough to understand that I will continue to question everyone's authority but His.

    'Nuff said.

    I don't think I misconstrued your comments at all. You stated that religion is a set of rules created by man in order to have external controls on their life. You dismissed in general attempts to worship God in an organized way as creations of man - and only for those weak enough to 'need external controls' on their behavior.

    I never accused you of attacking MY personal beliefs - I simply stated the obvious from your first post: that you have stated a condescending view of organized religion.

    Or let me put it this way: if you look at the NT, Jesus spent tons of time criticizing the Pharisees about all the traditions of men that had obscured the actual written Word. If that is your view of your experience w/ organized religion, then I can certainly understand and even validate some of that. But your actual comments painted religion in general as a creation of man and therefore binding and limiting of spirituality instead of highlighting it.

    I never once made any comments about how you believe. Not knowing those beliefs, I can only made comments about what you SAID. If you look back on your first comments, they are very condescending of religion. I understand clearly from your comments that you have disagreements with your experiences with organized religion - but you made generalizations towards all organized religions based on your experience.

    Hey, I understand that there is a reason why religion shouldn't be discussed in polite circles. I wasn't and I'm not trying to judge you. I'm not trying to be offended - and in point of fact, I am not easily offended. All I was saying was that your first comments held a negative connotation of organized religion. That may be well earned from your perspective. But to apply it to religion in general is dismissive of what religion can and has done for individuals and society.

    And I only pointed it out so that you could reread that first post and maybe gain some insight into how you interact with beliefs that disagree with yours. How you DID interact was to, not so humbly, stake the claim that YOUR beliefs are the more ADULT beliefs and therefore, everybody else's is CHILDISH by comparison. All I was saying was that maybe that needs to be re-evaluated.

    Peace. I am used to having deep conversations about religion and politics w/ my intellectual friends (and I would hopefully consider you one of them.) It is a tad more difficult in text format because so much of communication is non-verbal and so relying solely on text can lead to misunderstandings. I did not intend to 'attack' your beliefs - I only intended to suggest that you re-evaluate how you write about beliefs with which you disagree.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  9. Visit  RazorbackRN profile page
    0
    [
    Of course, it's pretty obvious that Republicans can't be good nurses.[/quote]


    I'm hoping this was a joke?
  10. Visit  nursemike profile page
    0
    Quote from iwannabeanrn
    [
    Of course, it's pretty obvious that Republicans can't be good nurses.

    I'm hoping this was a joke?[/quote]

    absolutely.
  11. Visit  rogramjet profile page
    1
    First of all NO, you don't have to be religious of spititual to be a nurse, compassionate, caring, YES.

    Second, I don't want people pushing their religious belifs on me, and we were taught in nursing school that this is inapppropriate.

    Third, Marx needs to be interpreted on the basis of the times he lived. There was a great seperation of class...workhouses, poor houses, orphanages...remember Oliver Twist? How about Ebenezer Scrooge? "Are there no workhouses? Are there no prisons...then let them die and decrease the suplus population." Dickens was making a political commentary of the time...The Rich ran the country, and created the laws. The Rich also controlled the church. The Rich therefore wrote the State laws and the morales of the time. The Rich used the Church to help suppress the masses, therefore the satement..."the opiate of the masses..."
    badmamajama likes this.
  12. Visit  ZASHAGALKA profile page
    1
    Quote from nursemike
    I confess, I haven't taken the trouble to look it up, but I was shocked, years ago, to learn that long before Marx, Thomas Jefferson described religion as the opium of the masses.
    I wasn't going to weigh in on this, but I couldn't let the assertion that Marx was an idiot go unchallenged. Yes, I'll agree, I think he was wrong in many ways, but wrong does not equal stupid. Einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics, but he wasn't an idiot.

    As for the apparent dichotomy between religion and spirituality, I would like to clarify the issue by muddying the waters with another comparison, between personal religion and public religion. I don't mean to disparage organized religion--throughout history, many fine people have practiced organized religion. Rev. King. The Dalai Lama (for whom I named my Himalayan cat, Dolly Llama). Mother Theresa. St. Francis of Asissi. My late Grandmother.
    But it's all too easy to cite the horrors of organized religion, the various crusades and jihads, Inquisitions and witch hunts...the crucifixion of Jesus was the act of an organized religion. If we try to fit the religion of the Pharisees under the same tent as the faith of Bernadette, we end up with not the opiate of the masses, but the mescaline.
    The key distinction, I think, is between those who perform religion as a formal (empty) ritual and those who experience a personal relationship with whatever God or god they worship. Or, from another angle, a pocketful of stones doesn't make you spiritual. You can sit under a pyramid until the cows come home, but if your heart isn't open to the universe, it's just silly. You can pray in the town square until you're blue in the face, but if you don't love God and your fellow man, you're just making noise.
    What I'm getting at, in my usual verbose manner, is that we shouldn't compare the heartfelt faith of the devoutly religious to the trendy blather of feckless new-agers, or the life-long questing of the deeply spiritual to the hollow rantings of a t.v. evangelist.
    I'm not sure how to tie this in to nursing. I do know that my old tomcat, Peaches, likes to bathe and cuddle and play with kittens, and I'm pretty sure he's a heathern. Or maybe his faith is so absolute that I can't begin to imagine it. Hmm. At any rate, I don't think caring, compassion, empathy, and love are the sole domain of any faith, persuasion, gender, or species, and those are the qualities (along with at least some vague idea what you're doing) that make us nurses.

    Of course, it's pretty obvious that Republicans can't be good nurses.
    1. I never said Marx was stupid. I said he was an idiot. There have been and are many 'smart' idiots in the world.

    2. I actually agree with most of what you wrote. My understanding of religion is best summed up in Acts 17: "He (God) did all this so we might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each of us." I don't think you get credit for 'going through the motions'. But I also think the effort to reach out is more important than the process of how you do it.

    3. I'm not a 'republican'. I'm a 'movement conservative'. And for the record, I'm the best nurse in the history of nurses. (That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.) LOLOLOL.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Godisthere likes this.
  13. Visit  Hopalong profile page
    0
    Nah, you don't have to be religious(spiritual) to technically be a good practictioner of nursing.


    But since I was born again I'm a better nurse.


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