"Fired for NO Reason"

Nurses Professionalism

Published

we often see threads with the title "fired for no reason," or "new grad harassed and fired" or something to that effect. and i always feel at least a little sympathy for the individual involved, if only because i can clearly see by reading between the lines of their self-justifying post that there was a reason for their termination, even if they just don't get it. (there are always a few posts every year from a new grad who is convinced that the reason she's not getting along with her co-workers is that she's just so beautiful they're all jealous, that crowds of mean people are following her around, that she's so wonderful she's going to rock the er or icu or nicu or or and no one sees her wonderfulness clearly, or that some mean, tired, old nurse who ought to retire and get out of the way is targeting her for no good reason.)

i worked with a new grad who was recently terminated for, as she puts it, totally bogus reasons. evidently seeing mine as a sympathetic ear, she went on and on and on about how unfair it was that management expected her to get her act together and actually understand what was going on with her patients. "i've got the time management thing down pat," she said. "i don't know what else they want. they're just picking on me for no good reason." i liked sal, i really did. she was interesting and entertaining and really, really nice. she was also smart, hard-working (when she was at work) and well-educated. but she didn't study outside of work, and really didn't understand what was going on with her patients. i participated in several meetings with her in which it was pointed out that it's not enough to do the tasks, you have to understand why you're doing them. it's not enough to draw the labs. you have to understand what the results mean and then address them. for instance, if the inr is 9, it might explain the nosebleed, the cherry red urine and the fact that the hemoglobin is now 6. giving the coumadin at 6pm as scheduled is not a good thing, even if you gave it right on time and were able to explain to the patient that "it's a blood thinner." i could go on and on.

i got a call from sal today, complaining that she knows she's blackballed for no good reason because she just can't get another job. she wanted me to give her a reference. did she just not get it?

all you new grads out there who are convinced that you're being picked on for no reason, that your more experienced colleagues are just out to get you, and that you're being unfairly targeting, harassed, or picked on, hear this: it may be something you're doing (or not doing) and all those "mean people" are trying to explain it to you so you catch on, learn your job and succeed. we all tried over and over with sal, and she still doesn't get it. are you guilty of the same thing? if your preceptor says you lack critical thinking skills, do you take it to heart, think about it and learn from it? or are you convinced that the entire issue is that she's jealous of your extreme good looks? if your charge nurse charges you with a deficit in your time management skills do you spend time figuring out where you could speed things up a bit? or do you dismiss her as a tired old dog who can't learn a new trick and ought to retire anyway? are you taking to heart and benefitting from any negative feedback you're getting, however poorly given it is? or are you obsessing about how "mean" that nurse was to you and totally overlooking the message?

i wish sal would have "gotten it." she would have been delightful to work with if she had. but right now she's focused on badmouthing her preceptors and the charge nurse, and she still doesn't understand what she did wrong. don't make the same mistakes.

Sometimes we have to find our niche. I worked with a nurse not long ago that everyone had terrible things to say about. She also ended up in psych and did very well there. She was much better at general concepts and abstract things than concrete facts such as INR 9.0 + nosebleed = danger hold the coumadin! Everyone is different.

Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
did the "end" of getting a job which may be suitable, justify the "means" by which that decision was made?

i believe that there is a kinder, gentler way to achieve appropriate employment, without traumatising new grads, as sal was. it would be great if nursing schools took some responsibility for managing their adjustment to working conditions (for a price, of course), that would be optional, thereby promoting a useful program.

i am totally at a loss as to what you think should have been done to correct the "means" by which sal was terminated. every attempt was made for remediation, she was given multiple second chances and no one was abusive to her at any time despite her conviction that she was being unfairly picked on and targeted. some people are just not cut out to be icu nurses -- sal, for one. some people are not cut out to be pysch nurses -- i'd be a good example.

i'm beginning to think that your repeated suggestions that there would be a kinder, gentler way wo achieve appropriate employment are merely digs aimed at me. evidently you think i'm lacking somewhere in either mentorship, friendship or reporting skills.

Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
what i don't understand is, this girl made it through nursing school, so she must be cut out for something. you don't make it through 4 yrs. of nursing school and not know something-she knew enough to pass her class and clinicals-has anyone taken the time to understand that?:confused: i'm with lamazeteacher, i route for the underdog because i used to be one. i remember seeing a time where my preceptor said i was "dangerous" for overlooking an allergy, which in turn caused no harm to the pt. i suppose every preceptor out there has never made a mistake....keep dreaming!!! at the time i was new and making mistakes and, i had a lot of people who kept doubting whether i would make it and they did not support me. now 16 yrs. later, i'm the nurse who can work anywhere in the hospital-floor, neuro icu, ccu, cvicu, etc. i've also done speeches on stroke prevention, teach acls and pals, and have been in numerous charge nurse roles. that's not bad for the underdog!!!!!!:p:p. i might add, i didn't do it with a whole line of support from my fellow co-workers, it was out of sheer diligence and the desire to prove everyone wrong. in my opinion, if you're going to take the responsibility of being a preceptor, be a preceptor and help others instead of buddying up with your "girlfriend" and stamping out the underdog!!!!:down:anytime i've precepted someone, i've always looked back on the days when my "preceptor's":down:didn't believe in me and i swore i'd do a better job and i did.:smokin:

sal made it through nursing school, so evidently she crammed in enough knowledge to pass her tests. did she retain the knowledge? i don't know. or was it merely lack of critical thinking skills or lack of knowledge? i don't know.

while i'm sorry that you were the underdog at one point, i don't see how it relates here. the woman was given multiple second chances and just didn't get it. it happens.

Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
well, she'd have something in common with her patients, who escape reality by going into a pathological mental state in an avoidance strategy.......:p

first you slam me for "picking on poor sal" or "being mean to the underdog" or whatever deficiency it is in my character that you assume made it impossible for sal to continue in the icu. and now you slam sal. i don't get it.

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
"....... The big question for me is would I want that nurse looking after a member of my family???"

It would never be my choice to have a new grad with questionable skills in ICU in the first place, and definitely not caring for any of my family members!

However, do we really know how she would function with 6 months of positive, standardised preceptorship, by nurses who believe that new grads can make it in ICU without previous M/S experience. Nurses working together usually don't "diss" each other, which is possibly why the second set of twinsy preceptors seconded the opinion of the first set. What is the reason for 2 preceptors at a time?

Maybe I'm just for the underdog here, but I have to say it again, I think she was overwhelmed with a double dose of unsupportive mentors, and a pseudo supporter in the wings, in a scary situation not appropriate for newbys. :madface:

(emphasis added) Are you saying that the second set of 2 preceptors set Sal up for failure right out of the gate because if she succeeded it would make the first set look bad? Yikes! Hope not!

If 6 months of preceptorship is the norm now for ICU, it's improved since I got out of school. What I always found is that nurses who really want to work in ICU know in advance that it's fast-paced, higher acuity. They like it that way. I have to wonder what it was about Sal during the interview process that impressed them so much they took on a new grad.

first you slam me for "picking on poor sal" or "being mean to the underdog" or whatever deficiency it is in my character that you assume made it impossible for sal to continue in the icu. and now you slam sal. i don't get it.

that was in response to mine....the emoticon at the end of lamazzes' post , i am not exactly sure what it meant? i thought your post about sal going to psych was tongue in check.....

Specializes in OB, HH, ADMIN, IC, ED, QI.

partial quote from ruby's post #495

1."....................i'm beginning to think that your repeated suggestions that there would be a kinder, gentler way wo achieve appropriate employment are merely digs aimed at me. evidently you think i'm lacking somewhere in either mentorship, friendship or reporting skills."

2."every attempt was made for remediation, she was given multiple second chances and no one was abusive................."

ruby, i'm so sorry that i gave you the impression that my remarks were aimed at you. it's another "kill the messenger" type of thing, as i know you were kind enough to let sal vent to you, and reported the conundrum for our enlightenment. it was clear that you were not one of her preceptors, and may have been sucked into the difficulties sal experienced, which made her see you as her only ally.

what i wanted to say, is that having 2 preceptors at a time can be daunting for anyone, much less a new grad. i've not seen that done. you and i know that icu nurses work in "lock step" or they'd have no back-up with urgent situations wherein they need to do many things for each other when in a tight spot with a decompensating patient.

i was suggesting that a longer orientation in icu could be necessary for a new grad, like 6 months, possibly.

when i teach, i try to make the environment as stress free as possible, to enhance learning, which is what i meant when i said "a kinder, gentler" approach might have achieved greater success with sal. i don't think that's possible when someone is faced by 2 experienced nurses who find her wanting; and then another 2 are assigned to her when she didn't make the grade with the others. they already had agreement on many issues, with the previous colleagues who thought sal wasn't someone they wanted working with them. how could they have said otherwise, a direct contradiction of the others' viewpoints?

it would not be my way to orient someone who is having difficulty acclimating.

we also know that psych nurses are the diametric opposite of critical care nurses. also, due to psychiatric patients' need to get out of the "fray". the atmosphere where they are, is accepting, nurturing, and gentle.

icu nurses don't generally respond well to a new nurse with a "doe in the headlights" look. their expertise as i know it, is to sum up a situation correctly, quickly and act accordingly without wondering how the patient will feel about what their actions. i'd not do well as an icu nurse, which is why i never worked there. i need and project warmth and reassurance. it's possible that you sense my priorities, and they're not yours, which is ok.

we each have found work/niches that are appropriate for us, given who we are. luckily in nursing there are many opportunities for all kinds of nurses and their approaches to their work.

I'm not really referring to Sal specifically when I give examples but I do know that when a person is targeted, an entire department can stick together to boot you out. I've seen it numerous times. A paper trail is started and everyone is asked to contribute to it so a person can be put out on their ear. It's not about trying to work with a person, it's about a witch hunt and you don't have a leg to stand on !!!!!!:down: Did anyone ever think about maybe putting Sal out on the floor to give her some basic experience? I personally think everyone was too busy trying to find fault in her-word can spread fast and an opinion can be formed before a person ever hits a certain department-this translates to being doomed from the start.

Specializes in PACU, CARDIAC ICU, TRAUMA, SICU, LTC.

After reading the first few posts, I felt like I was listening to a "cat fight," or watching a mud slinging contest. There are ways to say things, and then there are ways to say things. This thread has really taken me by surprise; I was just about to go to another nurses' web site, but I kept reading. Thankfully, some decorum was re-established here..........

Specializes in CTICU.
"....... The big question for me is would I want that nurse looking after a member of my family???"

It would never be my choice to have a new grad with questionable skills in ICU in the first place, and definitely not caring for any of my family members!

However, do we really know how she would function with 6 months of positive, standardised preceptorship, by nurses who believe that new grads can make it in ICU without previous M/S experience. Nurses working together usually don't "diss" each other, which is possibly why the second set of twinsy preceptors seconded the opinion of the first set. What is the reason for 2 preceptors at a time?

Maybe I'm just for the underdog here, but I have to say it again, I think she was overwhelmed with a double dose of unsupportive mentors, and a pseudo supporter in the wings, in a scary situation not appropriate for newbys. :madface:

I hardly see where Sal was "traumatized" - looks like she was oblivious to any issues with her performance. She probably STILL thinks they ganged up on her for no reason...

Also it's not correct that ICU is "a scary situation for appropriate for newbys" - I was a new grad in ICU and I did just fine, in fact I still love it. It totally dependent on picking the right people for the right positions, and providing adequate orientation and support.

Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
partial quote from ruby's post #495

1."....................i'm beginning to think that your repeated suggestions that there would be a kinder, gentler way wo achieve appropriate employment are merely digs aimed at me. evidently you think i'm lacking somewhere in either mentorship, friendship or reporting skills."

2."every attempt was made for remediation, she was given multiple second chances and no one was abusive................."

ruby, i'm so sorry that i gave you the impression that my remarks were aimed at you. it's another "kill the messenger" type of thing, as i know you were kind enough to let sal vent to you, and reported the conundrum for our enlightenment. it was clear that you were not one of her preceptors, and may have been sucked into the difficulties sal experienced, which made her see you as her only ally.

what i wanted to say, is that having 2 preceptors at a time can be daunting for anyone, much less a new grad. i've not seen that done. you and i know that icu nurses work in "lock step" or they'd have no back-up with urgent situations wherein they need to do many things for each other when in a tight spot with a decompensating patient.

i was suggesting that a longer orientation in icu could be necessary for a new grad, like 6 months, possibly.

when i teach, i try to make the environment as stress free as possible, to enhance learning, which is what i meant when i said "a kinder, gentler" approach might have achieved greater success with sal. i don't think that's possible when someone is faced by 2 experienced nurses who find her wanting; and then another 2 are assigned to her when she didn't make the grade with the others. they already had agreement on many issues, with the previous colleagues who thought sal wasn't someone they wanted working with them. how could they have said otherwise, a direct contradiction of the others' viewpoints?

it would not be my way to orient someone who is having difficulty acclimating.

we also know that psych nurses are the diametric opposite of critical care nurses. also, due to psychiatric patients' need to get out of the "fray". the atmosphere where they are, is accepting, nurturing, and gentle.

icu nurses don't generally respond well to a new nurse with a "doe in the headlights" look. their expertise as i know it, is to sum up a situation correctly, quickly and act accordingly without wondering how the patient will feel about what their actions. i'd not do well as an icu nurse, which is why i never worked there. i need and project warmth and reassurance. it's possible that you sense my priorities, and they're not yours, which is ok.

we each have found work/niches that are appropriate for us, given who we are. luckily in nursing there are many opportunities for all kinds of nurses and their approaches to their work.

we assign two preceptors at a time because new hires have a lot of central hospital classes to attend, and it's too difficult to pair them with one preceptor every day that they work. the odds are greatly improved with two main preceptors, usually an experienced preceptor paired with someone who is new to the role. sal herself asked to have new preceptors when the first ones failed to appreciate her critical thinking skills and mastery of time management. (that was tongue in cheek -- although she did manage to get her vital signs, meds and i & os done on time, there was very little critical thinking taking place and she failed to master many of the technical skills necessary.) she claimed that they're mentoring styles were inhibiting her growth. she was assigned new preceptors -- who found the exact same issues with her performance as the first two, the ones sal believed were unfairly targeting her.

orientation for new grads is expected to be 6 months and is often extended by a couple of weeks. however, if someone is showing clear signs that things aren't going to work out -- as in sal, who wouldn't learn from her preceptors because she was convinced she already knew everything she needed to -- it's more cost effective to stop devote the energy to trying to force them into the icu mold and help them find a new position instead.

the whole point of this overlong thread is that sometimes when newbies assume that "everyone is picking on them" and they're really doing well but the cliques are "trying to get rid" of them "for no good reason," sometimes the newbies are mistaken. some of those preceptors who are "picking on them" are genuinely trying to help them out, and they don't get it. they'd rather complain of the unfairness of it all rather than take a look at their own behavior or take responsibility for themselves. i guess i'm shocked at how many members seem to believe that if a newbie fails it's never their fault, but rather always a failure in education or mentoring.

Specializes in Clinical Research, Outpt Women's Health.

What astounds me is that people insist a person can do well if enough/the right training is provided. While that is optimal there are still people that just will not work out.

I would suck as a hospital nurse most likely. I am smart and have many fine skills, and I am a really good nurse, but none of that means I will do a good job as an ICU nurse no matter what training is provided.

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