What do you think about nurses and PA's being called "Doctor"?

realmaninuniform · Oct 15, 2012

"Plenty of individuals in PT, SLP, OT, and other healthcare disciplines hold earned doctoral degrees in their fields and are doctors of PT, SLP, OT, etc. (however, a Master's degree is the minimum for licensure in PT, SLP, and OT, and has been for quite a while."

Shirley, you can't be serious. "A Master's degree is the minimum for licensure in PT, SLP, and OT and has been for quite a while?" No. Each state has their own practice act. A BACHELORS is the minimum. That in itself is a farce. Does it really take 4 years of post secondary education to perform a physical therapy eval and recommend treatment? No. It should be about a 3 month program, honestly. Let's not forget that "therapy" is a relatively new "science" which first devolved from nursing.

Again, this is the problem I have with recognizing "doctors" of this that or the other. Consider the course matter, the relevancy, and the total intelligence involved. Not to mention accreditation, comprehensive medical knowledge, total time spent, etc. etc.

These "earned doctoral degrees" you speak of are obtained in 6 years or less, the same amount of time or less than it requires for a Master's degree in related fields. And again, these "doctors" don't write a dissertation, nor do they have prescriptive, or any real authority. Hence why I take their title with a grain of salt. Not to mention most are bottom feeders.

Case in point, working on the alzheimers unit, I once had a "doctor" of SLP, tell me that I needed to chart on a PT who was having no difficulty swallowing, hadn't spoke in years, no episodes of aspiration, and was in end stage dementia, then contact the physician so they could do therapy. I balked initially, but humored the "doctor". The pt received 3 days of "therapy" and was discharged "reaching full rehabilitation potential". The pt. died about a week later peacefully in their sleep at the ripe old age of 97. I'm no doctor, but it doesn't take a doctor to evaluate that this wasn't an appropriate client for "therapy".

And the therapy vulturism far from stops there. They love to pick clients who are so severely cognitively impaired there is no way in hell that "therapy" is going to benefit them in end of life. Yet to appease the bobs, and keep the money flowing, we are forced to subject our pts to this ********. It's really quite disgusting and makes me look down upon the various "therapy" practitioners, at least in LTC.

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Oct 15, 2012

Today's Doctoral Physical Therapists have a broad education:

My alma matters extensive Doctoral PT program requirements: Physical Therapy Courses

Drexel Universiy: Doctor of Physical Therapy curriculum

I've seen some amazing progress made by patients in home care with our DPT's skilled care. Helps that we have several DPT programs and 2 nationally renown Rehab hospitals in Philadelphia: Magee and Moss Rehab.

Our Doctoral Speech Therapist, known as Dr M., introduced VitalStim Dysphagia Therapy for Difficulty Swallowing to our home care agency. They have had great success with several patients weaned off tube feedings back to oral food.

They can have "Doctor" on their name tag with discipline listed in 1 " print at bottom of ID badge clearly documenting their profession.

elkpark · Oct 15, 2012

"Plenty of individuals in PT, SLP, OT, and other healthcare disciplines hold earned doctoral degrees in their fields and are doctors of PT, SLP, OT, etc. (however, a Master's degree is the minimum for licensure in PT, SLP, and OT, and has been for quite a while."
Shirley, you can't be serious. "A Master's degree is the minimum for licensure in PT, SLP, and OT and has been for quite a while?" No. Each state has their own practice act. A BACHELORS is the minimum. That in itself is a farce. Does it really take 4 years of post secondary education to perform a physical therapy eval and recommend treatment? No. It should be about a 3 month program, honestly. Let's not forget that "therapy" is a relatively new "science" which first devolved from nursing.
Again, this is the problem I have with recognizing "doctors" of this that or the other. Consider the course matter, the relevancy, and the total intelligence involved. Not to mention accreditation, comprehensive medical knowledge, total time spent, etc. etc.
These "earned doctoral degrees" you speak of are obtained in 6 years or less, the same amount of time or less than it requires for a Master's degree in related fields. And again, these "doctors" don't write a dissertation, nor do they have prescriptive, or any real authority. Hence why I take their title with a grain of salt. Not to mention most are bottom feeders.
Case in point, working on the alzheimers unit, I once had a "doctor" of SLP, tell me that I needed to chart on a PT who was having no difficulty swallowing, hadn't spoke in years, no episodes of aspiration, and was in end stage dementia, then contact the physician so they could do therapy. I balked initially, but humored the "doctor". The pt received 3 days of "therapy" and was discharged "reaching full rehabilitation potential". The pt. died about a week later peacefully in their sleep at the ripe old age of 97. I'm no doctor, but it doesn't take a doctor to evaluate that this wasn't an appropriate client for "therapy".
And the therapy vulturism far from stops there. They love to pick clients who are so severely cognitively impaired there is no way in hell that "therapy" is going to benefit them in end of life. Yet to appease the bobs, and keep the money flowing, we are forced to subject our pts to this ********. It's really quite disgusting and makes me look down upon the various "therapy" practitioners, at least in LTC.

Okay, so we're back to what I mentioned in my original post about people objecting to doctorally-prepared advanced practice nurses being referred to as "Dr. So-and-so". Your objections arise from your personal opinions of the doctoral degrees earned by individuals in some healthcare fields.

Asystole RN · Oct 16, 2012

"A Medical Doctor who does not have a license to practice is still entitled to the title of Medical Doctor. The title of nurse is a title of licensure, not of educational achievement."
This is exactly my point. Why is it we can refer to anyone with a "doctorate" degree as a doctor, regardless of license status when you are only a nurse when you pass NCLEX and are licensed within a state?
I think the title of "doctor" is being handed out far too freely AND EASILY these days. You can earn your "doctorate" entirely online now. And the accreditation system in post secondary education is a farce. I love these "regionally accredited" for-profit on-line universities, who charge outrages fees for their subpar programs in obscurity.

The term nurse refers to, and only to, one's licensure. Someone who has earned a BSN, MSN, or a DNP but has no license to practice can still retain and utilize their educational achievement title, just not the state regulated term of licensure.

Educational achievement has little to nothing to do with licensure.

It's like the military, regardless of the persons actually job, they are still due all the respect of their rank. Educational achievement titles are like military ranks.

elkpark · Oct 16, 2012

"Plenty of individuals in PT, SLP, OT, and other healthcare disciplines hold earned doctoral degrees in their fields and are doctors of PT, SLP, OT, etc. (however, a Master's degree is the minimum for licensure in PT, SLP, and OT, and has been for quite a while."
Shirley, you can't be serious. "A Master's degree is the minimum for licensure in PT, SLP, and OT and has been for quite a while?" No. Each state has their own practice act. A BACHELORS is the minimum.

I am completely serious (and kinda curious about why someone in healthcare wouldn't already know this). A Master's degree is the minimum for licensure in PT, OT, and SLP in all fifty states (and has been for years, although I'm sure there are still some baccalaureate-prepared individuals who were grandfathered in and are still practicing), and there are plenty of doctoral programs in those fields. The physical therapy community has already set a deadline for when the doctoral degree will become the minimum requirement for (new) PTs.

"All PTs must receive a graduate degree from an accredited physical therapist program before taking the national licensure examination that allows them to practice ... Professional (entry-level) physical therapist education programs currently are offered at 2 degree levels:

Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT) Degree

Master of Physical Therapy (MPT) or Master of Science in Physical Therapy (MSPT) Degree

The accredited professional (entry-level) doctoral programs (DPT) are identified by the key code (D6) on the Directory of Accredited Physical Therapist Programs. Of the 211 accredited physical therapist programs, 210 are accredited DPT programs and 1 is a MPT program. Both degrees currently prepare students to be eligible for the PT license examination in all 50 states. The Commission on Accreditation in Physical Therapy Education (CAPTE) will require all programs to offer the DPT degree effective December 31, 2015."

Physical Therapist (PT) Education Overview

"Occupational therapists need a master’s degree in occupational therapy. Additionally, all states require occupational therapists to be licensed."

Occupational Therapists : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

"A master's degree in speech pathology, commonly known as speech-language pathology (SLP), is the basic requirement to practice in all states."

Speech Pathology Education and Training Requirements

T-Bird78 · Oct 16, 2012

It's a gross misrepresentation of title and power and education level. The PA and NP I've worked with introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Bob, I'm a PA" and "Hi, I'm Shirley, the nurse practitioner" and the staff would tell the patient that their appointment is with the PA or the NP. The mid-level should NOT present themselves as a doctor even though they're just as good, or better, than the MD. I know a lot of people want the MD because they can do no wrong, but most patients appreciate the mid-levels when they recognize their knowledge and compassion and slower-paced schedules. I'd have several pts only want to see the PA or NP after the initial meeting. When pts are apprehensive about seeing the PA or NP (and I've worked with both at two different offices) I explain that they can do nearly what the MD can and the MD still supervises and the MD even trained our PA himself.

Asystole RN · Oct 16, 2012

It's a gross misrepresentation of title and power and education level. The PA and NP I've worked with introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Bob, I'm a PA" and "Hi, I'm Shirley, the nurse practitioner" and the staff would tell the patient that their appointment is with the PA or the NP. The mid-level should NOT present themselves as a doctor even though they're just as good, or better, than the MD. I know a lot of people want the MD because they can do no wrong, but most patients appreciate the mid-levels when they recognize their knowledge and compassion and slower-paced schedules. I'd have several pts only want to see the PA or NP after the initial meeting. When pts are apprehensive about seeing the PA or NP (and I've worked with both at two different offices) I explain that they can do nearly what the MD can and the MD still supervises and the MD even trained our PA himself.

I do not think anyone is advocating that someone who does not hold the educational title of doctor represent themselves as a doctor.

What many are saying, myself included, is that the term doctor is a reference to an educational achievement and not to licensure. Not all doctors are medical doctors, all medical doctors by definition have earned the educational achievement of a doctorate however.

realmaninuniform · Oct 17, 2012

"Educational achievement has little to nothing to do with licensure."

I'm going to give you this opportunity to withdrawal that statement."Educational achievement has little to nothing to do with licensure?" Are you kidding me? Go try to take medical boards, nursing boards, or any professional license exam without the proper educational credentials. You will be denied.

Why is it that nurses must list their institution and their program while applying just to get an opportunity to take boards? Because it has EVERYTHING to do with licensure. If you didn't go to a recognized institution and pass, the board is not going to allow you to sit for NCLEX.

realmaninuniform · Oct 17, 2012

"I am completely serious (and kinda curious about why someone in healthcare wouldn't already know this). A Master's degree is the minimum for licensure in PT, OT, and SLP in all fifty states (and has been for years, although I'm sure there are still some baccalaureate-prepared individuals who were grandfathered in and are still practicing), and there are plenty of doctoral programs in those fields. The physical therapy community has already set a deadline for when the doctoral degree will become the minimum requirement for (new) PTs."

I guess I don't know your alleged fact, which isn't even a fact, rather something you cut and paste off of a website, not proving a thing. Maybe if you could reference each state's law where it specifically states this, or even one for that matter, you might have a point. But since you are getting your rhetoric from a website controlled and promoted by therapists, I'm going to have to take it with a grain of salt.

Again, for me it comes down to licensure status, if applicable, and in the health care field it is applicable. Even according to your statements a DPT is still just a physical therapist by licensure. A DNP is an advanced practice nurse, and without a phd, is still just a Nurse Practictioner. A PA, is a PA. Unless you write and have a dissertation published and recognized, or pass medical boards you are no more than anyone else.

Anyone can call themselves a doctor, let's not forget about all the honorary doctorate degrees awarded. Stephen Colbert is technically a doctor by your standards. Educational "achievement" in itself does not define titles.

Asystole RN · Oct 17, 2012

"Educational achievement has little to nothing to do with licensure."
I'm going to give you this opportunity to withdrawal that statement."Educational achievement has little to nothing to do with licensure?" Are you kidding me? Go try to take medical boards, nursing boards, or any professional license exam without the proper educational credentials. You will be denied.
Why is it that nurses must list their institution and their program while applying just to get an opportunity to take boards? Because it has EVERYTHING to do with licensure. If you didn't go to a recognized institution and pass, the board is not going to allow you to sit for NCLEX.

None the less someone with a diploma, associates, bachelor's, master's, or doctorate can all hold a license. On the other hand, someone with a diploma, associates, bachelor's, master's, or doctorate may not have a license. You must have been trained in a program that has met certain state requirements but there is no requirement to hold a certain educational degree.

Educational degree does not equal license, and visa versa.

Asystole RN · Oct 17, 2012

"I am completely serious (and kinda curious about why someone in healthcare wouldn't already know this). A Master's degree is the minimum for licensure in PT, OT, and SLP in all fifty states (and has been for years, although I'm sure there are still some baccalaureate-prepared individuals who were grandfathered in and are still practicing), and there are plenty of doctoral programs in those fields. The physical therapy community has already set a deadline for when the doctoral degree will become the minimum requirement for (new) PTs."
I guess I don't know your alleged fact, which isn't even a fact, rather something you cut and paste off of a website, not proving a thing. Maybe if you could reference each state's law where it specifically states this, or even one for that matter, you might have a point. But since you are getting your rhetoric from a website controlled and promoted by therapists, I'm going to have to take it with a grain of salt.
Again, for me it comes down to licensure status, if applicable, and in the health care field it is applicable. Even according to your statements a DPT is still just a physical therapist by licensure. A DNP is an advanced practice nurse, and without a phd, is still just a Nurse Practictioner. A PA, is a PA. Unless you write and have a dissertation published and recognized, or pass medical boards you are no more than anyone else.
Anyone can call themselves a doctor, let's not forget about all the honorary doctorate degrees awarded. Stephen Colbert is technically a doctor by your standards. Educational "achievement" in itself does not define titles.

:roflmao:

You have got to be kidding me.

I think someone has never stepped foot on a university before. You really need to look into the history of educational titles and the use thereof.

psu_213, BSN, RN · Oct 17, 2012

For me it is pretty simple...

A person who has attained a doctoral degree deserved to be referred to as doctor. This includes a physician--whether an MD or DO, an NP who earned a DNP, a professor of horticulture who has a PhD, and dentist who is a DMD/DDS.

A person who does not have a doctorate does not get to go by doctor...a PA (with no doctoral degree), an MSN level NP, a dental hygienist, etc....