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| No. 10 | 
Jul 07, 2007, 11:11 AM
 Re: ??Is there a shortage: Nursing Supply and Demand
Train those people that want to be nurses and pay the nurses and instructors that you have a decent rate and that will truly help the shortage
 | | Advertisement Sponsored Links | | | | No. 11 |
Jul 11, 2007, 10:27 AM
Updated
Jul 11, 2007 at 10:33 AM by Roy Fokker
Re: ??Is there a shortage: Nursing Supply and Demand Originally Posted by Beggar  Nurses beware: This "shortage" will be used as more and more justification to import ever more nurses from third-world countries who will work for a fraction of what our domestic nurses will. Originally Posted by Beggar The problem is, it never proves to be temporary. The fact that they're brought in to work for less compensation has a depressive effect on wages which only serves to reinforce the need to import more workers.
It is against Immigration and Dept. of Labor laws to pay immigrant nurses at lower rates than comparable American nurses.
Nursing immigration is not the same as other professions. Nurses work on Green Cards - not H1Bs.
If you know of a company that is employing foreign nationals as nurses at lower pay rates, it is illegal and that entity is breaking the law!
I don't know how many times this little factoid is repeated - yet people persist with the incorrect information that nurses are imported by the shipload and paid a pittance of a salary.
Please stop by the International Nursing Forum sometime - it contains a wealth of knowledge about foreign nursing and nursing immigration.
EDIT ::
Please see - A few facts that you need to know and Questions for Suzanne
cheers,
| | No. 12 |
Jul 11, 2007, 12:00 PM
Re: ??Is there a shortage: Nursing Supply and Demand
"It is against Immigration and Dept. of Labor laws to pay immigrant nurses at lower rates than comparable American nurses."
Roy, you're missing the point. It isn't that American nurses are working for X, and foreign nurses are working for 1/2X. The point is that the mass importation of foreign nurses depresses EVERYONE'S wages. It's simple supply and demand. By inflating the supply of nurses by importing them, the pay that nurses can command is less than it would otherwise be.
| | No. 13 |
Jul 11, 2007, 12:37 PM
Re: ??Is there a shortage: Nursing Supply and Demand
The foreign staff from economically depressed/developing countries are also more likely to put up with staffing situations and a work environment that locals aren't. Not because they are less professional. At home, the staffing situations might be similar or worse and the pay isn't as high. Also, they sign contracts that make it very costly to opt out. The US nurse can just give notice and quit a bad situation. The US nurse is also more likely to be able to find another job with similar pay. The foreign nurse goes back home to a depressed economy, lower wages, and possibly higher workloads.
So in this case, the ability to hire foreign nurses is less about the level of pay but more about the persistence of poor working conditions (low staffing, workloads that demand questionable shortcuts, etc) that discourage US nurses from such jobs.
| | No. 14 |
Jul 11, 2007, 01:34 PM
Re: ??Is there a shortage: Nursing Supply and Demand Originally Posted by fins Roy, you're missing the point. It isn't that American nurses are working for X, and foreign nurses are working for 1/2X. The point is that the mass importation of foreign nurses depresses EVERYONE'S wages. It's simple supply and demand. By inflating the supply of nurses by importing them, the pay that nurses can command is less than it would otherwise be.
No, I'm addressing the issue of "compensation".
Not the eventual depression of wages due to glut in the nursing labor suply market.
Here, I'll highlight the relevent aspects of the posts I quoted: Nurses beware: This "shortage" will be used as more and more justification to import ever more nurses from third-world countries who will work for a fraction of what our domestic nurses will. The fact that they're brought in to work for less compensation has a depressive effect on wages
"who will work for a fraction", "to work for less compensation"... etc.
Does this sound like an argument stating the "eventual depression of wages due to over supply" or an argument stating "hospitals like hiring immigrants because they are cheaper than residents" ?
Poster is arguing the point that wages paid to immigrant nurses are already "depressed" or 'lower than average' and that doing this serves to further the depression of nursing wages across the board.
Not the other way around.
All I am saying is "that's not true. Labor and immigration law says that's illegal". Originally Posted by jjjoy The foreign staff from economically depressed/developing countries are also more likely to put up with staffing situations and a work environment that locals aren't. Not because they are less professional. At home, the staffing situations might be similar or worse and the pay isn't as high. Also, they sign contracts that make it very costly to opt out. The US nurse can just give notice and quit a bad situation. The US nurse is also more likely to be able to find another job with similar pay. The foreign nurse goes back home to a depressed economy, lower wages, and possibly higher workloads.
So in this case, the ability to hire foreign nurses is less about the level of pay but more about the persistence of poor working conditions (low staffing, workloads that demand questionable shortcuts, etc) that discourage US nurses from such jobs
Your theory makes perfect sense if the influx of foreign nurses were limited to those coming from the Third World.
But we have plenty coming from first world nations. What about them?
You could be right, though. Just trying to throw some food for thought.
cheers,
| | No. 15 |
Jul 11, 2007, 03:10 PM
Updated
Jul 11, 2007 at 03:15 PM by jjjoy
Re: ??Is there a shortage: Nursing Supply and Demand
Notice which hospitals foreign staff from first world countries work at and which hospitals are predominantly staffed by foreign staff from developing countries. It's not usually an even mix. There's a pretty clear distinction where I am.
I can't argue that foreign staff keeps wages artificially low. While I agree that nurses DESERVE to be well-paid, I doubt any of us would actually want to PAY for more for our health care. Substantially higher nurse pay means higher inpatient costs and LTC costs, health insurance premiums would continue to go up and coverage would go down, more health facilities would close. I'm not sure what direction would be best given so many variables.
| | No. 17 |
Jul 22, 2007, 12:48 PM
Re: ??Is there a shortage: Nursing Supply and Demand
Hospitals are not revenue neutral. Budgets are set 1 to 3 years in advance. Salaries were removed from the manager role in order to control costs - across the entire organization. Nursing pays what nursing pays. If a unit can staff with an $18.00/hr versus a $28.00/hr they will hire the 18 every time. It is supply and demand - If you are a $28.00 nurse and there are no $18.00 nurses around, or predicted, you will have an easier time, but they will negotiate you down if they have any other options. Also, you should be wary of any facility that will take you off the street and pay your asking price - you are either not asking enough, or there is a problem in the facility. Now, if you are recruited that is another story. If you are bringing a skill that cannot be met locally, that is another story. All and all it is a supply and demand equation. Think about it - have you ever worked as a staff nurse, with not enough staff and someone instantly solved your problem? Or did you "make do" until the right "fit" was found.
| | No. 18 |
Jul 22, 2007, 12:57 PM
Updated
Jul 22, 2007 at 02:50 PM by lindarn
Re: ??Is there a shortage: Nursing Supply and Demand Originally Posted by ajzcox01 I agree with you. I don't think there is really a shortage of nurses. Nurses graduate and find out that working in a hospital setting with high nurse patient ratios and stressfrom doctors is not worth the money they are getting paid. In turn they either go into another field or find a job that is less stressful such as a doctor's office. To help this program hospitals should have a set patient ratio, incentives for staying, and higher pay rates.
I went to the doctor last week and did not recognize the nurse who took my vital signs. She said that she was new. I asked her where she had worked before, and she told me that she just graduated from the community college in June.
I was surprised. I asked her if she didn't want to work in a hospital, at least for a year to get experience. She replied that amost a quarter of her graduating class did not take jobs in a hospital. She said that they had seen it all while they were in clinical, and had no desire to put up with the stress and short staffing.
Another reason for the "nursing shortage". We can't even entice new grads to START A JOB IN A HOSPITAL, EVEN FOR A SHORT TIME, let alone that they leave with in two years after graduation when they do!
I can only assume that the new grads, at least for now, have no interest in going into a grad program where/when hospital experience in needed.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington
| | No. 19 |
Jul 22, 2007, 01:42 PM
Re: ??Is there a shortage: Nursing Supply and Demand Originally Posted by fins "It is against Immigration and Dept. of Labor laws to pay immigrant nurses at lower rates than comparable American nurses."
Roy, you're missing the point. It isn't that American nurses are working for X, and foreign nurses are working for 1/2X. The point is that the mass importation of foreign nurses depresses EVERYONE'S wages. It's simple supply and demand. By inflating the supply of nurses by importing them, the pay that nurses can command is less than it would otherwise be.
Sorry, but Roy is not missing the point here. We no longer have the H1-B visas for nurses available. When they were, that was the case, but it is illegal to do that with the green card as far as salary. Sure, you may see some unscrupulous agency taking a bigger cut of their pay and minimum that we see is about $10,000 per year for the agency services on average. But what the facility actually pays for them is not 1/2 of what the others are getting in the same place. They cannot do that. Against federal as well as state as well as immigration law.
And there is no mass importation of foreign nurses, there are visa limits as to how many can come to the US. There have not been any visas available for nurses from any country since last October 31. We are only seeing a trickle come thru now that are from recapped visas. There are also quite a few "foreign-trained" nurses from the UK, Canada, and Australia; as well as the rest of Europe. Definitely not from third world countries. And the countries that have the larger number of applicants than the number of visas for nurses from that country, will remain under the retrogression more than likely.
In order to get a green card to work in the US, the nurse must pass a nursing licensure exam, as well as pass the series of English exams and possess a Visa Screen Certificate. No one can decide that they wish to work in the US, and then be here the following month and doing so. You may here of some, but they are working illegally and have not gone thru the proper channels.
Only exception to this are the nurses from Canada and Mexico that work in the US with the TN Visa. As long as they have a Visa Screen Certificate and the job offer, they can get a TN Visa at the border without any waiting. But this is the only exception. All others must go thru a lengthy process to be able to work in the US.
And as mentioned above, please take the time to read some of the threads on the International Forum. It is not as easy, nor as fast as many of you think for an international nurse to work in the US.
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