The crowd was there to show support for SB 840 - page 2

State Sen. Sheila Kuehl addresses over 2,000 nurses, school employees, community activists, and patients at a CNA/NNOC sponsored healthcare rally on May 8th in Sacramento, CA on the Capitol steps.... Read More

  1. by   UKRNinUSA
    "Millions risk their lives every year to come to this country"
    A bit hyperbolic!
    Speaking as an immigrant, I , amongst others, was a victim of propaganda. I was led to believe, among other things, that there was no racism or sexism in America and got a rude awakening when shortly after I arrived, there was the Clarence Thomas hearings and the LA riots. Although both my husband and I work hard, the American dream still seems unattainable.
    "The greatest democracy in the world" -have you checked out the level of corruption in the government and the rampant corporatism that runs the country? Aren't we just returning to a new and improved version of feudalism?
    Any way I just had to call you on that one, sorry to get off topic. I for one support SB840.
  2. by   DarrenWright
    Quote from UKRNinUSA
    "Millions risk their lives every year to come to this country"
    A bit hyperbolic!
    Speaking as an immigrant, I , amongst others, was a victim of propaganda. I was led to believe, among other things, that there was no racism or sexism in America and got a rude awakening when shortly after I arrived, there was the Clarence Thomas hearings and the LA riots. Although both my husband and I work hard, the American dream still seems unattainable.
    "The greatest democracy in the world" -have you checked out the level of corruption in the government and the rampant corporatism that runs the country? Aren't we just returning to a new and improved version of feudalism?
    Any way I just had to call you on that one, sorry to get off topic. I for one support SB840.
    An exaggeration? In what manner? In that it's not risky and many die trying to make the trip?

    An estimated half-million per year risk crossing the southern border each year. Add to that the even riskier journey from Cuba or Haiti. Since many die, I'd have to say that classifies as risky.

    Is there another country that as many are dying to enter?

    Could you share what the Brits would say if I made residence there, said I was an American living in the UK, and then said my new home, the UK, presented nothing but obstacles and social problems and was a big disappointment to me?
  3. by   UKRNinUSA
    "An estimated half-million per year risk crossing the southern border each year. Add to that the even riskier journey from Cuba or Haiti. Since many die, I'd have to say that classifies as risky."

    Not every immigrant is from south of the border or from an opressed country-I am not hispanic, I did not risk my life to come here and there are many more immigrants like me. The picture of the disadvantaged immigrant risking life and limb to escape their evil oppressor is just one more example of romanticised propaganda.

    "Could you share what the Brits would say if I made residence there, said I was an American living in the UK, and then said my new home, the UK, presented nothing but obstacles and social problems and was a big disappointment to me?"

    They would say "Jolly good, old chap, how about a nice cup of tea, it sounds like you need one."
    So because I'm an immigrant I'm not entitled to express my opinion? Are you kidding? What a load of codswhallop. The recurrent theme in this country is that you don't have a valid opinion or the right to an opinion unless you were direct descendants of the Mayflower or unless your moral character is pure and beyond reproach. What was all that about free speech?
  4. by   DarrenWright
    Quote from UKRNinUSA
    "An estimated half-million per year risk crossing the southern border each year. Add to that the even riskier journey from Cuba or Haiti. Since many die, I'd have to say that classifies as risky."

    Not every immigrant is from south of the border or from an opressed country-I am not hispanic, I did not risk my life to come here and there are many more immigrants like me. The picture of the disadvantaged immigrant risking life and limb to escape their evil oppressor is just one more example of romanticised propaganda.

    "Could you share what the Brits would say if I made residence there, said I was an American living in the UK, and then said my new home, the UK, presented nothing but obstacles and social problems and was a big disappointment to me?"

    They would say "Jolly good, old chap, how about a nice cup of tea, it sounds like you need one."
    So because I'm an immigrant I'm not entitled to express my opinion? Are you kidding? What a load of codswhallop. The recurrent theme in this country is that you don't have a valid opinion or the right to an opinion unless you were direct descendants of the Mayflower or unless your moral character is pure and beyond reproach. What was all that about free speech?
    I never said they were all from south of the border, or that they were all from an oppressed country. My point, still valid, was that many take substantial risks to get into this country. And you reinforce my point in that many more decide to come here that DIDN'T come from third-world domicile...people that already had it good, yet came here for something BETTER!

    No-one even suggested that you weren't entitled to express your opinion, but I don't believe for a moment that the folks in the UK would offer a cup of tea in response to overt complaining about the condition of the country. But if you think that's valid, here's what I have to say about your rant on racism, sexism, riots, and your failure to attain your dream; have a nice hot Starbucks...sounds like you need one.
  5. by   UKRNinUSA
    "but I don't believe for a moment that the folks in the UK would offer a cup of tea in response to overt complaining about the condition of the country"

    you didn't have to live through the "Thatcher years" -complaining about the state of the country is as common as complaints about the weather.
  6. by   DarrenWright
    Quote from UKRNinUSA
    "but I don't believe for a moment that the folks in the UK would offer a cup of tea in response to overt complaining about the condition of the country"

    you didn't have to live through the "Thatcher years" -complaining about the state of the country is as common as complaints about the weather.
    There is a difference between domestic criticism (essential to the democratic process), vs. a national showing up for the purpose of self-benefit who then turns to the activity of denigrating the very country they've moved to for parasitic reasons.
  7. by   HM2VikingRN
    in case you don't know what immigrants do in this country, the latinos have a word for it--trabajo. they've been mowing the lawns, cleaning the offices, hammering the nails and picking the tomatoes, not to mention all that dish-washing, diaper-changing, meat-packing and poultry-plucking.
    ...
    the only question is how much we owe our undocumented immigrant workers. first, those who do not remain to enjoy the benefits of old age in america will have to be reimbursed for their contributions to medicare and social security, and here i quote the website of the san diego aclu:
    undocumented immigrants annually pay an estimated $7 billion more than they take out into social security, and $1.5 billion more into medicare.... a study by the national academy of sciences also found that tax payments generated by immigrants outweighed any costs associated with services used by immigrants.
    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070625/ehrenreich
    parasitic is an offensive term which imo reflects the sentiments first expressed by the know-nothing party in the 1850's.

    diversity strengthens us as a country. i have a friend from el salvador who came here at 15 because he was an economic and political refugee. he served in the army in iraq and became a citizen after his discharge from the army. he continues to serve in the national guard and will deploy to kosovo next month. given the opportunity these are people who want to contribue to society just as much as anyone.
  8. by   DarrenWright
    Quote from HM2Viking
    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070625/ehrenreich
    Parasitic is an offensive term which IMO reflects the sentiments first expressed by the know-nothing party in the 1850's.

    Diversity strengthens us as a country. I have a friend from El Salvador who came here at 15 because he was an economic and political refugee. He served in the Army in Iraq and became a citizen after his discharge from the Army. He continues to serve in the National Guard and will deploy to Kosovo next month. Given the opportunity these are people who want to contribue to society just as much as anyone.
    1. There is no research or political experiment that proves the theory that diversity strengthens us as a country. I don't refute the idea, but I don't make claims that cannot be supported by evidence.

    2. I wasn't referring to anectedotal people like your friend. I was instead making reference to anectedotal people who simply came here to experience the benefits of this country, and are then too easy to only find fault with it. If you don't think there are a lot of 'citizen parasites,' then I'd like to know why our country is such need to expand it's domestic welfare. I can't believe that we are so disabled as a population that places like Pennsylvania have to dedicate nearly 40% of their budget to welfare.
  9. by   pickledpepperRN
    Quote from DarrenWright
    1. There is no research or political experiment that proves the theory that diversity strengthens us as a country. I don't refute the idea, but I don't make claims that cannot be supported by evidence.

    2. I wasn't referring to anectedotal people like your friend. I was instead making reference to anectedotal people who simply came here to experience the benefits of this country, and are then too easy to only find fault with it. If you don't think there are a lot of 'citizen parasites,' then I'd like to know why our country is such need to expand it's domestic welfare. I can't believe that we are so disabled as a population that places like Pennsylvania have to dedicate nearly 40% of their budget to welfare.
    I work with nurses from every continent except Antarctica, including Britian, and they are not parasites. They are caring for our patients.
    If I'm upset my friends from London, Cornwall, Liverpoole, and Manchester all offer a cup of tea.
    In fact a lot of the venting, thinking, and planning actions to get our safe staffing ratios took place over a cup of tea after a nights work.

    Now when we have to waste valuable nurse, physician, and clerical time (and the ambulance transport staff) to transfer a patient from ours to a hospital their insurance company prefers we have tea and plan how to educate people about single payer.
    But venting comes first. Without complaining how do we discover the problems that need intervention?
    Same for one patient or our sick society.
    Last edit by pickledpepperRN on Jun 17, '07 : Reason: spelling
  10. by   UKRNinUSA
    "There is a difference between domestic criticism (essential to the democratic process), vs. a national showing up for the purpose of self-benefit who then turns to the activity of denigrating the very country they've moved to for parasitic reasons."

    So what you are saying is that immigrants that criticize the negative aspects of this society are parasites?

    Wouldn't the CEO's of health insurance companies that profit from the denial of healthcare benefits and extortionate health insurance premiums to the tune of millions if not billions of dollars be more deserving of the label "parasite"?
  11. by   DarrenWright
    Neither one of these scenarios reflect what I was saying, but that is OK.
    I'm sure the theme of my post was clear, but the tendency to avoid addressing the fact straight with diverted discussion can't be helped, I suppose.

    So I pretty clearly did not say that immigrants that criticize the negative aspects of this society are parasites. However, there is something inherently wrong with people that are granted the privilege to live here, reap the benefits of living here, who then choose to make past-time of criticism. Not sure why it's a mysterious concept that if you don't like it, you have the option to return.

    This isn't a malicious position, but more of a practical one.

    And again, spacenurse, we have all worked with international nurses; that's the beauty of this country. They come here in droves for some reason. It's certainly not to be missionaries to a bunch of heathen savages living in mud huts, or out of the charitable nature of their hearts to uplift the weak and downtrodden American. It's because America is a land of plenty and opportunity. And the nurses you mention are not the ones I am referring to, and the scenario doesn't really fit.

    And of course we vent, but is it unreasonable to take offense when someone takes it to a position of national criticism? Nationals love to target America, but are not any more gracious regarding criticism than anyone else. I've been to the UK, and several other European countries, and the tea doesn't flow like the friendship milk it's being presented as in this forum.
  12. by   DarrenWright
    Quote from UKRNinUSA
    Wouldn't the CEO's of health insurance companies that profit from the denial of healthcare benefits and extortionate health insurance premiums to the tune of millions if not billions of dollars be more deserving of the label "parasite"?
    Not really, but have a cup of tea, and applaud them for being so much more successful at the American dream than you and I.
    Last edit by DarrenWright on Jun 17, '07 : Reason: Remove a label that was not intended, but possibly condescending
  13. by   nurseaboveboard
    WOW! This is a HOT thread, in more ways than one! I'm a "bootstraps" person myself and believe that we have no more rights than we can shake a stick at. In the WISH FOR IDEAL WORLD maybe yeah, but the REAL world???? There are some folks here that I would like to have dinner with (referring to someone's prev post) and one of them is Darren Wright and also Teeituptom. I think they might offer me the unvarnished truth, which I might have to take in small doses, at SEVERAL dinners, with liberal amounts of BOTH coffee AND tea! Now, in my "old age" I am REALLY trying to open myself up to the opinions of others who feel Totally different than me, but the "I got my new Hoveround and it didn't cost me a penny" group? I admit, I struggle with that!

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