Ten Reasons Why American Health Care Is so Bad - page 4

from the american prospect: indeed, we have brand new data. the commonwealth fund just released a broad survey collecting health care attitudes and experiences from patients in australia, canada,... Read More

  1. by   Iam46yearsold
    Well if we cancel the illegal war Bush is keeping us in. That can open up funds for generations to run health care at an optimum level. Why pay for war if you cant afford health.

    How much health care can be paid for with the amount given to AIG on the bail out.

    How much health care can we get for what they are going to bail out the big three automakers, while they continue to run their companies so inefficiently into the ground. What is more important SUVs for soccer moms or health care for the children.
  2. by   just_cause
    Quote from Iam46yearsold
    Well if we cancel the illegal war Bush is keeping us in. That can open up funds for generations to run health care at an optimum level. Why pay for war if you cant afford health.
    Actually the senate voted the Iraq war resolution and 29 democrats voted for it and 21 against. I actually believe John Edwards and Hillary Clinton were both present and voted 'yea' to pass it as a senate. Its ok it's a trendy and mighty popular viewpoint. Why would the lack of the Iraq war support the funding of health - it wouldn't. I mean we recently promised 16 month pullout, right? As you will see that will not happen, but it worked for the campaign.

    Quote from Iam46yearsold
    How much health care can we get for what they are going to bail out the big three automakers, while they continue to run their companies so inefficiently into the ground.
    Agree'd. I think it is sad but feel letting them go bankrupt and start from scratch as a necessary development. Of course the government might like to 'own' them a bit - the healthcare doesn't need the benefit as the gov already owns/controls a good portion of this industry.

    Quote from Iam46yearsold
    What is more important SUVs for soccer moms or health care for the children.
    I do not even understand what this could mean - it's just trying to infer something negative on the gov of AK - for unk reason. Do you really think that moms who drive SUVs are preventing children from getting health care - really?
    Last edit by just_cause on Dec 11, '08
  3. by   RN4MERCY
    Quote from just_cause
    I do not even understand what this could mean - it's just trying to infer something negative on the gov of AK - for unk reason. Do you really think that moms who drive SUVs are preventing children from getting health care - really?
    Say what? It wasn't confusing to me. Pssst! If 46 wanted to somehow infer something negative about Governor Palin of Alaska, the sport is HOCKEY; and without a reference to lipstick, the inference just isn't there.

    Besides, lots of team, (and don't forget band, drum line, dance, and drill teams, choir and scouting), moms and dads drive SUVs; they CAR POOL to games, and they do their best to support their children. There are people who walk, cycle, and use public transportation to get to work and soccer games too. What about them? If we can't get access to medically necessary healthcare we're all going to be sidelined from the so-called game of life at some point.

    This isn't really about what kind of car people choose to drive. It's about the illusion that we have a "free market" in this country. We're "socializing" the banking industry, and our government is talking about "bailing out" the corporate automakers for their failed vision. It's about executives and some politicians whose greed knows no bounds. This is about the fact that our healthcare system is broken and we need to fundamentally change it!

    This should be about bailing us all out of our current healthcare crisis. Health care is wrongly treated like a commodity in this country. When the workers in the auto industry lose their jobs, they'll lose their insurance. Most employers no longer offer insurance as a benefit because of affordability; or if they do, their workers can't afford the premiums, co-pays, or deductibles. Linking health insurance to employment is bad public health policy.

    Did you ever see the movie, "SiCKO"?
    http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/wh...ns/pnum649.php

    Don't blame the workers. Did you ever see "Who Killed the Electric Car?"
    http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/

    Individual mandates are not the answer, nor are insurance companies. Health care is not a commodity. It should be provided as a not for profit social service in this country. All the other top industrialized countries have figured this out. We already do this for education, police, and fire departments, public works, parks, water and sewage treatment programs. Why should the provision of medically necessary health care be any different?

    Insurance companies exist to make a profit for their shareholders, not to provide health care. They sell the illusion of "coverage" and avoid selling it to sick people. The tragedy of illness or injury shouldn't be compounded by financial ruin, yet over half of of the bankruptcies in this country are filed by people who had insurance at the onset of their bankrupting illness or injury.

    Markets are not a good way to distribute healthcare. If you've got money you get health care; is that fair or just? Dr. Martin Luther King said, "Of all forms of inequality, injustice in healthcare is the most shocking and inhumane." I'm a nurse, and I happen to agree with that statement. We can do better in this country by fundamentally changing our system to a civilized, single payer, universal healthcare system; it's not a dream, it's legislation: HR676. It would improve and expand MediCare to cover all of us.
  4. by   hypocaffeinemia
    Quote from CRNA2007
    #1 Liberals try and manage it.
    What an illuminating and groundbreaking opinion.

    I say, let's disband the FDA, all the state boards of medicine, nursing, and pharmacy, JCAHO, medicare, medicaid, and all other government management of the industry!

    Let the free market rule!


  5. by   just_cause
    Quote from Iam46yearsold
    hat is more important SUVs for soccer moms or health care for the children.
    Quote from RN4MERCY
    Say what? It wasn't confusing to me. Pssst! If 46 wanted to somehow infer something negative about Governor Palin of Alaska, the sport is HOCKEY; and without a reference to lipstick, the inference just isn't there.

    Besides, lots of team, (and don't forget band, drum line, dance, and drill teams, choir and scouting), moms and dads drive SUVs; they CAR POOL to games, and they do their best to support their children. There are people who walk, cycle, and use public transportation to get to work and soccer games too. What about them? If we can't get access to medically necessary healthcare we're all going to be sidelined from the so-called game of life at some point.
    RN4Mercy- I still do not see any correlation between health care for children and moms driving SUVs.
    Your 'explanation' did not provide any clarity on that point. I like the discussion of health care but feel we need to leave out these emotional viewpoints which are distractions at best.
    Last edit by just_cause on Dec 12, '08
  6. by   RN4MERCY
    Quote from just_cause
    I still do not see any correlation between health care for children and moms driving SUVs. I like the discussion of health care but feel we need to leave out these emotional viewpoints which are distractions at best.
    [QUOTE=just_cause;3306879]I still do not see any correlation between health care for children and moms driving SUVs.

    [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Please just explain, then,'cause it was your analogy in the first place, and it seems to me you pulled it out of the air in an attempt to hijack and off-road and reframe the very good point 46 was making. Please don't shoot the messenger.

    Even more to the point, it doesn't have to be this way. I included some facts and links to them in support of my position, and of course there's emotion involved. We're human beings. Feelings and emotions aren't necessarily distractors. They are useful reminders of our collective humanity. Like the hope that helps us overcome our fears, it gives us the courage to change the things we can. It compels us to act altruistically and acknowlege that we are all in this together.

    As nurses, we can't expect to work and wade through the sea of suffering, while witnessing the consequences for our patients, (preventable complications and death), caused by a corrupt and inhumane for-profit insurance industry, and not have it touch our heart, mind, and spirit.

    As professional advocates, we have the right and the duty to act to change those circumstances that are against the wishes or interests of our patients. Insurance companies make a profit by delaying care, denying care, and refusing to pay for medically necessary care after the fact. Patients are left holding the bag or they're put into body bags as a result and that's just plain wrong! There is a solution:

    Single Payer Talking Points & Why Mandate Plans Won't Work
    by DrSteveB[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Please feel free to use and distribute per Dr. Steve

    1. Americans are afraid that they can't afford to get sick. Those of us with insurance are paying more and more of the premium and more out of pocket as well. Studies show further that we face bankruptcy if we get sick. Many among us have to choose between paying for medicine and paying for food and housing. And with the recent economic downturn, the ranks of those without insurance are growing.

    2. A majority of physicians (59 percent), and an even higher proportion of Americans (62% or more) support single payer national health insurance or "Medicare for all". In spite of this, all we are hearing about today are mandate plans that would require everyone to buy the same private insurance that is already failing us. These proposals don't regulate insurance premiums, they don't keep the insurance companies from refusing to pay many of our bills, and they don't improve the insurance we now have. Some offer a "public option," but this will quickly become too expensive as the sick flee to the public sector as private insurers avoid them, abandon them, or make it too difficult for them to get their bills paid.

    3. These mandate proposals won't work, either to expand coverage or to contain costs. Plans like these have been tried in many states over the past two decades (Massachusetts, Tennessee, Washington State, Oregon, Minnesota, Vermont, Maine). They have all failed to reduce the number of uninsured or to contain costs.

    4. These mandate plans will add hundreds of billions of dollars to the nation's health care costs. In this economic downturn, we need assure health care for all without adding to the nation's cost and the government's deficit. The bottom line is: these proposals don't reform the system - they just add to it.

    5. As long as we continue to rely on private for-profit insurers, universal coverage will be unaffordable. Their administrative costs consume nearly one-third of our health care dollar. We will never have enough money to provide everyone with decent care until we eliminate private insurance with its enormous waste and inadequate coverage. And we will never be able to keep costs down and get the care we need as long as the wasteful and unnecessary insurance companies stand between us and our doctors.

    6. Every other industrialized country has some form of universal health care. None uses profitmaking, investor-owned insurance companies like ours to provide health care for all their people.

    7. We have an American system that works. It's Medicare. It's not perfect, but Americans with Medicare are far happier than those with private insurance. Doctors face fewer hassles in getting paid, and Medicare has been a leader in keeping costs down. We should improve and expand Medicare to cover everyone.

    8. A single payer "Medicare for All" System is embodied in H.R. 676, sponsored by Rep. John Conyers and 92 other Members of Congress. It would have:
    Automatic enrollment for everyone
    Comprehensive services covering all medically necessary care and drugs
    Free choice of doctor and hospital, who remain independent & negotiate their fees and budgets with a public or non-profit agency.
    Public or non-profit agency processes and pays the bills.
    Entire system financed through progressive taxes.
    Help job growth and the entire U.S. economy by removing the burden of health costs from business.
    Cover everyone without spending any more than we are now.

    9. The growth in health care costs must be addressed if any proposal is to succeed.
    Single payer offers real tools to contain costs: budgeting, especially for hospitals, planning of capital investments, and an emphasis on primary care and coordination of care.
    Mandate plans offer only hopes: competition among insurance companies, computerization, chronic disease management. Competition among the shrinking number of insurance companies has already failed to contain costs and, in the absence of single payer and reformed primary care, computerization and chronic disease management will raise costs, not lower them.

    References by Number:
    1. "Illness and Injury as Contributors to Bankruptcy," D. Himmelstein et al, Health Affairs Web Exclusive, February 2, 2005.
    2. Carroll, A., Ackerman, R., "Support for National Health Insurance Among U.S. Physicians: 5 Years Later," Annals of Internal Medicine, 148(7), April 1, 2008; ABC News/Washington Post, Oct. 9-13, 2003, Associated Press/Yahoo News Poll, Dec. 14-20, 2007.
    3. S. Woolhandler, et al "State Health Reform Flatlines," International Journal of Health Services, 2008; Marcia Angell, "Health Reform You Shouldn't Believe In," The American Prospect, April 21, 2008.
    5. S. Woolhandler, et al "Costs of Health Care Administration in the U.S. and Canada," New England Journal of Medicine, Sept. 21, 2003; J.G. Kahn et al, "The Cost of Health Insurance Administration in California: Estimates for Insurers, Physicians, and Hospitals," Health Affairs, 2005.
    6. Reid, T.R., "Sick Around the World," PBS, April 15, 2008; Thompson, S., Mossialos, E., "Private Health Insurance and Access to Health Care in the European Union," Euro Observer, Spring 2004.
    8. United States National Health Insurance Act (or the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act), H.R.676, www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.676 ; "Health Care for All Californians Act: Cost and Economic Impacts Analysis," The Lewin Group, January 2005
    :typing[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]I agree that it's all well and good to have the discussion, only insofar as we can come together, and build the movement and work actively and collectively in support of single payer health care. Everybody in, nobody out.
  7. by   just_cause
    Quote from RN4Mercy:
    "Please just explain, then,'cause it was your analogy in the first place, and it seems to me you pulled it out of the air"

    RN4mercy,
    No the analogy was made by 46, not myself. I simply asked for the correlation between moms who drive SUVs and health care - as I do not see it. So your lengthy cut and paste reply do not discuss that.... I understand the idea of UHC, I do not see the correlation with women who drive SUVs.
    Last edit by just_cause on Dec 12, '08
  8. by   RN4MERCY
    Quote from just_cause
    Quote from RN4Mercy:
    "Please just explain, then,'cause it was your analogy in the first place, and it seems to me you pulled it out of the air"

    RN4mercy,
    No the analogy was made by 46, not myself. I simply asked for the correlation between moms who drive SUVs and health care - as I do not see it. So your lengthy cut and paste reply do not discuss that.... I understand the idea of UHC, I do not see the correlation with women who drive SUVs.
    just_cause,
    [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Here is 46's comment regarding whether or not we should be bailing out automakers who produce a commodity, an SUV, for instance, as opposed to providing health care for children. "How much health care can we get for what they are going to bail out the big three automakers, while they continue to run their companies so inefficiently into the ground. What is more important SUVs for soccer moms or health care for the children."

    [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Then you go off on her and attack her for somehow dissing the governor of Alaska, and post this unusual question in response to her post: "I do not even understand what this could mean - it's just trying to infer something negative on the gov of AK - for unk reason. Do you really think that moms who drive SUVs are preventing children from getting health care - really?"

    [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]46 never asserted "...that moms who drive SUVs are preventing children from getting health care." [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]That was your spin, your "correlation", not hers. [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]So, if you don't see the connection, how do you expect anyone else to? [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]It's not me that has to explain where you got that from; I have no idea.

    [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Now I see that you've edited your subsequent reply to my post from, "Great reply...it was not my analogy - I replied to the analogy...." [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]to the more smarmy one above. The facts speak for themselves. Sorry, I'm done with your circle game. It's off topic.
    [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]I am hoping to see a post from you about why you favor UHC.

    On to Universal Health Care!

    "The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
    It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
    Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
    It blesseth him that gives and him that takes."
    ~Ahhhhhhhh, Shakespeare. Thank you!
  9. by   just_cause
    RN4MERCY, thank you for the personalized posting,

    However, my inquiry on what this statement meant by 46 meant,
    "What is more important SUVs for soccer moms or health care for the children."
    was not answered.
    I appreciate your best guesses but it was not your posting.

    v/r
    Last edit by just_cause on Dec 13, '08
  10. by   mamafeliz
    The failure of health care delivery in this country is that it is driven by profit motive. Access to health care, in my mind, is a human rights issue, like access to education. We need to remove the big business model and start focusing on accessiblity for all, instead of having a system based on making $ for CEOs and shareholders.
  11. by   RN4MERCY
    Quote from mamafeliz
    The failure of health care delivery in this country is that it is driven by profit motive. Access to health care, in my mind, is a human rights issue, like access to education. We need to remove the big business model and start focusing on accessiblity for all, instead of having a system based on making $ for CEOs and shareholders.
    I agree. The most important reason why American health care is so dysfunctional, is that we have lacked the political will to fix it; until now. I think this is our time as a nation, as individuals, to make a single payer, universal health care system a priority.

    Many senators and members of congress, including some liberal ones, thought the idea was unworkable. HELLO? The election is over and the message is clear, Americans are serious about reform. It's the for-profit insurance industry and pharmaceutical industry that's blocked this from debate. They've used their full political power and economic power to block it, and if we follow their money into the campaign contribution coffers of key senators and members of congress, well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how this legalized form of "bribery" translates into a lack a meaningful reform agenda.

    In California, Governor Schwarzenegger said it best. He said when you take something from the special interests, they expect something in return. He ought to know. At the behest of his big PhRMA and insurance company "death by spreadsheet" cronies, he has heartlessly, not once, but twice, refused to sign California's single-payer bill, SB 840.

    The current system works well for the parasites who make a hefty profit at the expense of the most vulnerable among us, those who are sick or injured. Hubert Humphrey, the 38th Vice President of the United States once said, "...the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life; the sick, the needy and the handicapped. "

    We do have a successful and popular single-payer system of health care, (publicly funded, privately delivered), in this country: MediCare. We need to improve and expand MediCare to cover everybody. We have legislation that will accomplish just that, H.R. 676 The United States National Health Insurance Act.

    It has 93 Congressional co-sponsors. Check here to see if your congressional representative is on the list. If not, write to them and call their local district office. As nurses we have tremendous moral suasion. Let them know that our patients are sicker and at higher risk of death because of lack of access to basic, medically necessary care, and that it doesn't have to be this way. Now, we have a new, young President and it's up to us to hold him to the promise that "business as usual" will not be tolerated.

    President-elect Obama is on record as saying that he will sign the legislation if it gets to his desk. Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, a co-founder of Physicians for a National Health Plan said this, "I actually think politics is the art of creating the possible, and what's possible is what people believe is possible. You have the power as a group to make a statement that universal health care is the only ethical policy alternative and that the only proven way to get universal health care is through nonprofit national health insurance."

    "Health care is not just another commodity. It is not a gift to be rationed on ability to pay. It is time to make national health insurance a priority, so that the basic right to health care can finally become a reality for every American." Ted Kennedy, United States Senator.

    Yes, we can!
  12. by   Iam46yearsold
    Quote from just_cause
    Actually the senate voted the Iraq war resolution and 29 democrats voted for it and 21 against. I actually believe John Edwards and Hillary Clinton were both present and voted 'yea' to pass it as a senate. Its ok it's a trendy and mighty popular viewpoint. Why would the lack of the Iraq war support the funding of health - it wouldn't. I mean we recently promised 16 month pullout, right? As you will see that will not happen, but it worked for the campaign.

    Simple stop paying for the illegal war and health care would be affordable for all.

    Agree'd. I think it is sad but feel letting them go bankrupt and start from scratch as a necessary development. Of course the government might like to 'own' them a bit - the healthcare doesn't need the benefit as the gov already owns/controls a good portion of this industry.


    Actually a complete total restructuring of the auto industry is totally in order see as they have completely been unable to this themselves at all.

    I do not even understand what this could mean - it's just trying to infer something negative on the gov of AK - for unk reason. Do you really think that moms who drive SUVs are preventing children from getting health care - really?
    I didnt refer to Caribou Barbie in anyway. But now that you bring it up. She makes her own negative inferances for herself. She does not need any help from me.
    And if Soccer moms drove more fuel efficient cars rather than those traditional big old SUVs they drive. Then we could reduce our dependence on foriegn oil and maybe then that war would be over. The war is only about one thing, One thing only. OIL and more OIL
  13. by   Iam46yearsold
    Quote from just_cause
    RN4MERCY, thank you for the personalized posting,

    However, my inquiry on what this statement meant by 46 meant,
    "What is more important SUVs for soccer moms or health care for the children."
    was not answered.
    I appreciate your best guesses but it was not your posting.

    v/r
    Well excuse me for taking a few days off to work and not responding sooner. Really now which is more important, SUVs for soccer moms or health care for the children and under privileged. By continuing to buy and drive these SUVs we are continuing our reliance on OIL, Oil at any cost. This includes American soldiers lives, Continuing outflow of catastrophically large amounts of our money to countries that hate us. And takes away from the amounts of money, that would far more caover the comparative pittance it would take to fund health care. Seems simple to me.

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