Should nurses strike? - page 9

Should nurses strike? Would you cross the picket line?:confused:... Read More

  1. by   sanakruz
    geek- the laws in CA may or may not be implimented. There are links on other threads about this fiasco. Spacenurse is a memeber of CNA and can help you out with this one. As an LVN I am a memeber of SEIU. I have a sense of loyalty to my union, but the politicing is demoralizing, at best.

    My loyalty comes in part I think from understanding the history of labor in the US. It is about the haves vs the have nots, and its about DIGNITY.
    I think the key point in this "debate" is that a for- profit enterprise does not have you or yours best interest at heart. jt and others are right. If you dont advocate for your pts you are doing them a disservice. A strike is a WEAPON used against a big fat monster. Scary, isnt it? Scary to think one would ever have to fight for the dignity in our professional lives or the right of other human beings to be adequately cared for.
    Yeah I guess this is hyperbole.But geek, without your right to collectively bargain you will be crushed. Unions members are not all about shyt disturbing and striking. A STRIKE IS AN UGLTY THING. Lets hope you never have to be asked to make that choice. But at least you have the choice to make by being a union member.
  2. by   bender73
    Bender is not simply enjoying getting a rise out of people's reactions. If that is your take on the issue geekgolightly then you must read again. How can you say that when I have said a few times that I am not trying to do that? If you read other people's comments you would see that others have posted some things that are not very "nice" and obviously look like attempts to get a rise out of me...i.e., the seems someone has missed the point comment or attacking my grammar.

    What is a matter with some of you? Do I have to state over and over again that I agree with some of your points? I have said that. However, I am entitled to post my personal opinions on the matter and already some here have agreed with me.

    If you don't like my opinion, then I welcome educated and measured responses. I have already gave credit where credit is due, yet most have done nothing but attack me. So you don't like some of my comments, oh well. I don't like some of yours.

    This is a debate, not a pissing contest.

    Here is another issue that I agree with so pay attention...I agree that my own observations are likely not a large enough sample of the entire nursing population. My counterpoint is that my observations, combined with articles and media, also make up my own pooling sample for my opinions.

    Stop with the attacking and stop with the comments that I am only here to get a rise out of people...those comments are unfair and do nothing but degrade the debate.
    Last edit by bender73 on Jun 25, '03
  3. by   RNPD
    geek (I feel funny calling you that!)

    There is federally mandated legislation before Congress that is endorsed by the ANA. I don't agree with their proposed law-they want federally mandated guidelines for staffing with input from staff nurses but don't wish to actually mandate numbers. Since we all know how much our "input" is valued by hospitals, I feel this will be next to useless, and have written and told them why. Unfortunately, they were not interested enough in my opinion to acknowledge it. California already has a law on the books that will take effect later this year. I believe the numbers call for 1:5 at first for med/surg, then 1:4 as the final goal. Other ratios were spelled out as well. Massachusetts has an excellent proposed law that deals with ratios, mandatory OT, and other "concerns" of the AHA. Go to www.MNA.org to read the proposal. They seem to have a lot of support for the pending bill as well. I believe RI also has laws proposed or pending. Colorado apparently tried a few months ago, but the bill has been tabled indefinitely after 5 chief nursing officers in the state testified against it.

    For more accurate info go to the websites of the individual state's Nursing associations. Also look up UAN (United American Nurses) the labor arem of the ANA. Although with this federal proposal I am not too sure that I trust them anymore.

    Unions aren't doing so great thus far with improving conditions. I think this is because unions are only as strong as their weakest members and their members are nurses. Nurses are notorious for "suck it up and get it done" when it comes to patient care, and also notorious for not standing together. So at this point, I think our only hope is government regulation-much as I hate to see the government regulate ANYTHING!!
  4. by   RNPD
    bender-I asked you a specific question but you haven't answered it. Could you please give me the numbers for the ratios on a med surg floor at your hospital? Please specify shifts as well.

    thank you.
  5. by   Dplear
    As nurses I think we all need to remember something...We do not get paid to work hard, we get paid to work SMART.

    Just my two cents worth...

    Dave
  6. by   geekgolightly
    Originally posted by sanakruz
    geek- the laws in CA may or may not be implimented. There are links on other threads about this fiasco. Spacenurse is a memeber of CNA and can help you out with this one. As an LVN I am a memeber of SEIU. I have a sense of loyalty to my union, but the politicing is demoralizing, at best.

    My loyalty comes in part I think from understanding the history of labor in the US. It is about the haves vs the have nots, and its about DIGNITY.
    I think the key point in this "debate" is that a for- profit enterprise does not have you or yours best interest at heart. jt and others are right. If you dont advocate for your pts you are doing them a disservice. A strike is a WEAPON used against a big fat monster. Scary, isnt it? Scary to think one would ever have to fight for the dignity in our professional lives or the right of other human beings to be adequately cared for.
    Yeah I guess this is hyperbole.But geek, without your right to collectively bargain you will be crushed. Unions members are not all about shyt disturbing and striking. A STRIKE IS AN UGLTY THING. Lets hope you never have to be asked to make that choice. But at least you have the choice to make by being a union member.

    I have just spent some time off lost in google and have found out some really weird things about Tenet, such as the price markups, which in California can be as much as 1000%. Why is it that Tenet (which was the corp listed in spacenurse's posted article) is having a hard time providing a pension plan? If that is what nurses, who represent 33% of a hospitals staff, want, why are they balking so ferociously? What is the arguement against a pension. Obviously, if other hospital systems provide the pension plan as an option, it isn't outmoded as one representative suggested.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This goes by the way of "people's" organizations, as well. I know that a balance of power is difficult but I am still wary of labor unions. Is there a good book on the history of unions? And I know that nursing unions are availible and can be formed which are by nurses for nurses and I think that's great. What have the results been?
    Last edit by geekgolightly on Jun 25, '03
  7. by   bender73
    RNPD,

    Since I am not management I do not have monthly ratios to give you off the top of my head. Moreover, it varies from floor to floor and shift to shift with the senior RNs carrying more pts it seems than the younger RNs. Remember, I don't work on a floor, I admit pts, follow them for awhile, and roam to different floors. From the boards, I tend to see some RNs with 3-4 pts and some with 6-7 pts. Since I am in Internal Medicine, most of the floors I spend time on are telemetry units or medical floors.

    Numbers aside, that is not the issue!!! Again, its not that I am in disagreement with you on the problems that exist. How can so many miss that point? Its not that there is not a perceived problem, it is how I feel it should be handled...i.e., not striking. That is the fundamental arguement I have. I have raised other issues based on my personal opinions to which you have the right to disagree with, but the main issue is striking.

    This is going to go on and on because very few here seem to want to admit any of their possible faults. Its all or nothing. To those that I have been debating with...you all seem to think that you are all correct and everybody that thinks differently is wrong. There is no middle ground in your debate nor is there anything that I have said that has even made a dent in your thinking.

    I have given credit to jt and others for their arguments because some poeple have made some interesting points that have made me think...you can likely see it from the progression of my posts from being a little harsh at first to posting more thought provoking responses.
  8. by   geekgolightly
    Originally posted by fab4fan
    I said "someone" not to toss responsibility off onto another person...geez!

    It seems that the things I did were not that helpful, so maybe "someone" smarter than I can come up with a better way.
    What you did was not helpful? I'm confused. Are you against unions? I wanted an equal debate. I didn;t see one. I just see some troll getting a rise out of everyone else who all believes in the same thing. I do not know enough to just go along with everyone else. I want what is best. I believe you want what's best for the patients and for nurses now and to come. What is the best way to go about achieving this? Many here say union. I don;t know about it. I profess my ignorence. It is not on your shoulders to make sure I learn something in a debate that seems planned to just "stir emotions." You can;t help that the debate is one sided with one troll doing a pot stir! SO I am confused by your answer. If your feelings were hurt by my post, I apologize. I do not mean to hurt your or anyones feelings.
  9. by   geekgolightly
    Originally posted by RNPD
    geek (I feel funny calling you that!)

    There is federally mandated legislation before Congress that is endorsed by the ANA. I don't agree with their proposed law-they want federally mandated guidelines for staffing with input from staff nurses but don't wish to actually mandate numbers. Since we all know how much our "input" is valued by hospitals, I feel this will be next to useless, and have written and told them why. Unfortunately, they were not interested enough in my opinion to acknowledge it. California already has a law on the books that will take effect later this year. I believe the numbers call for 1:5 at first for med/surg, then 1:4 as the final goal. Other ratios were spelled out as well. Massachusetts has an excellent proposed law that deals with ratios, mandatory OT, and other "concerns" of the AHA. Go to www.MNA.org to read the proposal. They seem to have a lot of support for the pending bill as well. I believe RI also has laws proposed or pending. Colorado apparently tried a few months ago, but the bill has been tabled indefinitely after 5 chief nursing officers in the state testified against it.

    For more accurate info go to the websites of the individual state's Nursing associations. Also look up UAN (United American Nurses) the labor arem of the ANA. Although with this federal proposal I am not too sure that I trust them anymore.

    Unions aren't doing so great thus far with improving conditions. I think this is because unions are only as strong as their weakest members and their members are nurses. Nurses are notorious for "suck it up and get it done" when it comes to patient care, and also notorious for not standing together. So at this point, I think our only hope is government regulation-much as I hate to see the government regulate ANYTHING!!

    Thank you for your response. I tried the link you gave and it doesn;t seem to be working. I really want to read the Congressional proposal. Does it have a name and maybe I can look it up by name? Thank you so much for all the names of organizations so I can look stuff up. I really appreciate the time you took for this.
  10. by   bender73
    Originally posted by Dplear
    As nurses I think we all need to remember something...We do not get paid to work hard, we get paid to work SMART.

    Just my two cents worth...

    Dave
    You and I get paid to do both. There are few jobs in this world that you only get paid to work SMART. Lawyers, doctors, nurses, engineers, architects, etc. all work hard and SMART. I can see the point your trying to make but your in a profession to do both.
  11. by   bender73
    geek...grow up and stop referring to me as a troll. I am so sorry that I came to your little group and stated my opinion. I feel for you that you have to live in this little tiny world where everyone believes the same thing and will not welcome outside opinions. That is almost cult thinking. If stirring the pot is an adverse reaction to my opinions then I am sorry, but I am entitled to join a forum and state my views.
  12. by   nowplayingEDRN
    Originally posted by bender73
    Is someone missing the point completely? ...I am merely stating that striking is wrong...
    What it all boils down to is choice..........-I choose to be with the patient
    -Its morally wrong to me to walk out the door and abandon a patient
    -My personal ethics will not allow me to strike

    I think you need to realize that abandonment is when you are IN the hospital, ON your shift and you WALK OUT the door WITH OUT proper relief........that is abandonment........striking is not....striking is not: IN the hospital, ON your shift and WALKING OUT the door WITH OUT proper relief.

    I do not whine but why should I be subject to unsafe working conditions that jeapordize my patients well being??? Why should I not stand on a picket line when management has chosen to ignore my pleas for safer staffing levels and a better work environment so that my patients can have the very best of care?? You are right it boils down to choice.... and your choice might be different from mine. I find it interesting that your first post is one of contention and that you side with management in saying that nurses gripe when they try to create a safe haven for their patients........I also think you need to re-evaluate your state boad of nursings definition of abandonment.
  13. by   bender73
    This is getting out of hand.

    I came here out of the blue, saw a post thread that made me interested, joined, and posted my thoughts. For that, I have been attacked. I have been told my grammar is bad. Now I am a troll according to geek.

    I have not once made a personal attack on one person here. Moreover, I have agreed with a lot of people that there are indeed problems. I have given credit where credit is due and I have not proclaimed that I am correct and everyone else is wrong. RNstudent seemed to do the same and she was attacked. I can't help but think is is less a forum and more of a bunch of online friends that have their little group and you either agree with your opinions or get degraded.

    Troll? Anyone who joins and posts for the first time is a troll.

    Why don't some of you take a break, read through some of my posts again, and stop the useless attacks. Not everyone shares your belief structure.
    Last edit by bender73 on Jun 25, '03

close