Should Healthcare Be Funded As A Basic Human Right? - page 5
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3Dec 4, '12 by MunoRNQuote from PRICHARILLAisMISSEDActually I think the problem is that we try and separate them too much. Morals are how determine rights. Not all moral beliefs are rights, but all rights are based in moral beliefs. It's morally good to help an old lady cross the street, but it's not a "right" in that someone is required to help her. It's also morally good not to punch that old lady in the face, however that is a moral belief that has risen to the level of "right". I think some would like to separate the two, and say no aspect of healthcare is a "right", yet there a clearly some aspects of healthcare that these same people would consider a moral requirement, but for whatever reason refuse acknowledge the moral requirements as "rights".Let's be careful not to confuse "Rights" with "Morals."
3Dec 4, '12 by MunoRNQuote from chiromed0Single payer is not government provided medicine. Care is still provided by private hospitals and providers, many of which are still for-profit.Hmmm...what if single payer healthcare takes effect and this "basic human right" is now heavily governed with nurses and doctors salaries fixed/capped/controlled to cover everyone. How does that sit with everyone?
I think there are things which everyone would want to do for everyone but the practicality of it is impossible. Holding a standard that "healthcare" is a right when we can't enforce that is a problem. Instead of being at fault for committing malpractice when you do something wrong how would you like to be charged/prosecuted/sued for denying someones civil rights b/c you refused to provide care? Right now nobody can force you to care for someone as a patient but if they have a "right" to "your" services then can you refuse? Whether on the clock or not?
How can you afford rights for people we don't even know exist yet? Does this right exist b/c you are a human or a citizen? How can you budget for millions of illegals?
People get cared for now b/c of the basic goodness of others. Forcing "utopia" on people is a recipe for disaster.
0Quote from MunoRNMunoRN...I understand that a $100k medical bill is not the same thing as paying for a broken window. That is why I said that the payment plan can be measured in decades to do so. If they happen to pass away in the meantime then fine, the government can pay the balance. I am just trying to paint a picture of people putting some of their OWN sweat and tears into their own health. I just don't want healthcare funding to become solely the obligation of the government.Everyone is responsible for paying in the future, it doesn't change the fact that many never will be able to, no matter how well intentioned they may be. Healthcare costs are the leading cause of bankruptcy claims, which means we'll never see that bill paid. The problems is that a $100,000 hospital bill isn't the same as paying off the cost of someone's window that you broke, which is why most of us have health insurance; there's no way we could pay those costs if we incurred them, given that, it's even less likely that someone with a low-paying, non insurance providing job is going to be able to pay that off within their lifetime.
[QUOTE=MunoRN;7057952]For most of the unpaid bills that we end up splitting the cost on, the only way to ensure that the rest of us don't end up paying the bill is to deny that service in the first place.[QUOTE]
I guess that I can concede that it may be necessary for the government to pay the remainder of the bill, but only because the communities need their hospitals and the hospitals need money to operate. But only after the citizen in question simply cannot make the payments anymore due to death or total disability.
[QUOTE=MunoRN;7057952]Many people do stay on medicaid for a very long time, their called "disabled" and "elderly". In terms of the poor, poverty is not condition that just magically resolves on it's own. If you work at Wal-Mart it's not as though your below-poverty-level pay is temporary, if you work there for 10 years you'll still be poor.[QUOTE]
Ok, It's not that I'm trying to insult you, I swear I'm not but this is very naive. To be clear, it is not ONLY elderly and disabled citizens who stay on medicaid for a very long time. Many of the recipients are able bodied, but do all they can to stay on it. I'll visit this quote in detail in another post. I don't want to crowd this one.
Quote from MunoRNThat is a discussion for a different topic. I was simply addressing one of your comments. You lead me to believe that families of 4 who qualified for medicaid made $600 a month or less. I was simply bringing to your attention that the $600 a month is also (SIGNIFICANTLY) bolstered through other social programs.Yes, families of 4 making $600 a month do receive assistance, including medicare, I'm still not clear if you're saying they shouldn't be?
1Quote from bbuerkeI stand corrected on the amount. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I was merely using it though as an example of programs wasting money in reference to my first post on the first page. But I should have been more thorough, and I'm not sure where that extra zero came from"For instance, I read up a few days ago on a program called "Does Jesus care for Klingons..." it cost just over a million $."
It was one session of a larger workshop run by the DOD that totaled $100,000, and it was entitled "Did Jesus die for Klingons, Too?", discussing the implications of Christianity if life is discovered on other planets. Somewhere out there Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith are snapping to attention...
0Quote from MunoRNSemantics aside, until said "moral" is officially recognized as a "right", a moral it remains...Actually I think the problem is that we try and separate them too much. Morals are how determine rights. Not all moral beliefs are rights, but all rights are based in moral beliefs. It's morally good to help an old lady cross the street, but it's not a "right" in that someone is required to help her. It's also morally good not to punch that old lady in the face, however that is a moral belief that has risen to the level of "right". I think some would like to separate the two, and say no aspect of healthcare is a "right", yet there a clearly some aspects of healthcare that these same people would consider a moral requirement, but for whatever reason refuse acknowledge the moral requirements as "rights".
2Dec 4, '12 by HM-8404When people feel something is a right a large portion of the population tends to take advantage of it. My mother lives in an apartment on Social Security combined with survivor benefits from the military. She would be considered just above the poverty line. Her medical care is provided by TriCare and Medicare. The lady that lives in the apartment behind her's is in her mid to late 40's, able bodied enough she walks the 1/2 - 3/4 miles to the store on a regular basis. She has been on government assistance since she turned 18. Her rent is $12 a month, yes, that is not a typo, her power bill is paid by the government, she gets food stamps, some kind of gov't provided cell phone, she is on Medicaid, and she gets an SSI check. She has internet and satellite television. This woman has never worked a day in her life and lives better than many retired people I know. Off and on she has men with jobs living with her. She is proud to let everyone know she games the system. Personally I wish they would bounce her butt out of that apartment and let her fend for herself.
Everyone that has had any dealings with the government knows they can't run anything efficiently and all of their programs are full of abuse. They just view it as normal because it isn't their money being wasted. People talk about Cheney getting rich through Haliburton due to the wars, how rich do you think politicians will get through this "free" health care boondoggle? The wars are temporary, Obamacare is permanent.
1Quote from MunoRNBack to this...Many people do stay on medicaid for a very long time, their called "disabled" and "elderly". In terms of the poor, poverty is not condition that just magically resolves on it's own. If you work at Wal-Mart it's not as though your below-poverty-level pay is temporary, if you work there for 10 years you'll still be poor.
The first thing that popped into my head when I read this was an incident in by BUS 101 class way back when. For extra credit one of my classmates brought in her boss to tell us about his profession. He was a Bankruptcy lawyer (can anyone see where this is going?). Anyway, at the end of his schpeel (did I spell that right?) our Professor wanted us to ask him at least 5 non "Yes or no" questions. I was one of the lucky students who was picked to ask a question. My question was
"How do you justify helping some prick erase his accumulated debt? I mean he took the credit out, and by signing contracts he gave his word he would pay it back. How is that fair to the creditors?" He didn't answer me directly. His response was "Well what do you say about the single mother whose savings are completely wiped out by her childs cancer?" I rolled my eyes and asked him what percentage of his clients were in financial straits due to medical reasons (the ONLY acceptable excuse in my opinion) vs sheer irresponsibility? Hah, if you could see the look on his face! The Professor saw that the man was getting reeaaally uncomfortable and interrupted by thanking him for stopping by.
Anyway, that's what I thought of when I read the above quote. I think you readers can see how this happened.
Admin, please don't erase this post for going off topic, as it actually reflects the topic. You see, it is the above way of thinking that pushes for the nonsense of Government funded healthcare as a right. The people mean well, but while they advocate for the group of people who deserve it, they eventually group all people whether deserving or not into the "Deserving" group.
And that is how mistakes that cost the middle class are made.
0Dec 4, '12 by wannabecnlWow, VICEDRN, here I thought I was reading about the study YOU recommended to me, along with another by the same authors, and giving some thought to what conclusions THE AUTHORS were drawing from the study, not just viewing them through my own opinion.
If you go back and read my original answer to this thread, I was merely expressing my concerns that a) health care may or may not be a right but it is definitely a commodity that incurs costs, b) a black market for health care will be formed if people can't access the care they want through the normal channels, and c) studies used to compare outcomes across countries with different health care payment systems need to be analyzed carefully to tease out any bio/social/economic confounders that may be skewing the data. After you replied, I then added the point that d) increased access to health care does not always translate to better health outcomes, which is heavily supported in the medical literature. I'm not sure where you went from there, and I think we need to agree to disagree, especially given that I actually read what you recommended and then got slammed again for it. However, I'm glad I took the time to read the articles and do hope to download the actual papers from the studies, as well as the one they are working on now with the health outcomes. So thanks for pointing me toward these well-designed studies.
6Dec 4, '12 by BeagleBabeOur current system is idiotic, penny-wise and pound foolish. I am an unemployed, uninsured pre-nursing student. I could get COBRA from my old job at a cost of $545 a month. Since I am unemployed, I cannot pay that. I have applied for dozens of jobs, and no one is hiring. I don't qualify for medicaid (yet).
We do have free healthcare. It's called the ER. I have gone to the ER and not paid for it. Instead, the taxpayers pay for it. It's not what I want to do, but what choice do I have? (I don't feel too bad about it, since I've paid taxes for years.) All our current system does is prevent preventative care. Instead, people like me wait until they are in dire straits, and then the taxpayers get to pay pounds to cure me, instead of pennies to prevent it.
We are a dumb country!