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Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination



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No. 10
Old Aug 23, 2008, 10:45 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
Originally Posted by Bortaz View Post
So, since Catholics/Christians don't generally believe in abortions, some you you fellas don't think Catholics should be nurses...is that what I'm reading here?
Note: I'm an atheist that doesn't believe in abortions (in the majority of cases).

What I'm saying is that if assisting in abortions is a situation you are expected to face by choosing a certain job, you should not be protected under discrimination laws when you elect to refuse it:

A physician shouldn't accept an obstetric residency if they refuse to perform even non-elective and the rare medically necessary ones.

A nurse shouldn't take a surgical position at an abortion clinic if they refuse to assist in the procedure.

A pharmacist shouldn't take a position where they will be in a position to dispense drugs in their formulary they refuse to dispense out of personal and not professional reasons.

This is common sense, and individuals that knowingly choose to accept a position where they will likely have scenarios that conflict with their beliefs should not be protected from discrimination.

A traditional Muslim female is not discriminated against when she is let go from her bikini model job because she refuses to wear a bikini. It's exactly the same thing.

Should no Seventh Day Adventists be nurses, since nurses might have to transfuse blood?
Seventh Day Adventists and Jehova's Witnesses should certainly give a great deal of thought before entering a profession where standards of care go against their religious beliefs. If they elect to enter nursing they should choose a specialty where such conflicts are minimal to non-existent.

Oh, and now religious beliefs/moral beliefs are "naive illusions", are they?
I believe you have unfortunately misread my post.

The naive illusions belong to those who think they are being discriminated against by choosing a job that conflicts with their beliefs. Specifically, the naive illusion is that their job will work around them to accomodate their belief regardless of how much they ask their employer to stretch.

It isn't about us. It's about the patient. A patient deserves the standard of care, and doesn't deserve to suffer due to a caregiver's personal beliefs.

If personal beliefs conflict with patient care, patient care wins. Period, end of story. If anyone disagrees with this mantra, they quite frankly need to leave the profession.
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No. 11
Old Aug 23, 2008, 10:48 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
Originally Posted by Turd.Ferguson View Post
CRNA2007, you may be the greatest poster ever!!!
Since you agree with him, perhaps you'd care to demonstrate how "sexual discrimination" is a job requirement or standard of care.
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No. 12
from Bortaz, RN
Old Aug 23, 2008, 10:50 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
It is absolutely about us. Or should be. Any industry where the worker is disregarded is one that needs to be reevaluated and restructured. People in medicine put their backs, their feet, their nerves, their emotions and even their lives on the line for their patients. They are not just some lamb there to be sacrificed for the care of patients.

And people wonder why there's a nursing shortage and why the average new nurse lasts less than 6 years on the job.

You think just like the patients and administrators do.
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No. 13
Old Aug 23, 2008, 10:53 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
Originally Posted by Bortaz View Post
It is absolutely about us. Or should be. Any industry where the worker is disregarded is one that needs to be reevaluated and restructured. People in medicine put their backs, their feet, their nerves, their emotions and even their lives on the line for their patients. They are not just some lamb there to be sacrificed for the care of patients.

And people wonder why there's a nursing shortage and why the average new nurse last less than 6 years on the job.

You think just like the patients and administrators do.
You're not putting anything on the line for a patient when you refuse to apply evidence-based standards of care to them based on personal belief. Starbucks is always hiring if this is your stance.
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No. 14
from Bortaz, RN
Old Aug 23, 2008, 10:56 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
Well, we obviously disagree on this subject, so I don't see any sense in carrying our discussion any further. I'll close by saying that you put everything on the line when you give up your morality to do ANYTHING.
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No. 15
Old Aug 23, 2008, 11:03 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
Originally Posted by Bortaz View Post
Well, we obviously disagree on this subject, so I don't see any sense in carrying our discussion any further. I'll close by saying that you put everything on the line when you give up your morality to do ANYTHING.
Then the obvious answer is to not choose a profession and a job where you just might be required to give up your morality.

What this regulation does is gives those that made a poor decision to choose a profession and job where they must face conflicts of conscience a legal out. Instead of accepting personal responsibility for a poor fit, they instead blame their employer for not bending to the their beliefs and/or whims.

When we discourage personal responsibility in favor of government babysitting, everybody loses.
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No. 16
from oramar
Old Aug 23, 2008, 11:04 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
Originally Posted by Bortaz View Post
So, since Catholics/Christians don't generally believe in abortions, some you you fellas don't think Catholics should be nurses...is that what I'm reading here?

Should no Seventh Day Adventists be nurses, since nurses might have to transfuse blood?

Oh, and now religious beliefs/moral beliefs are "naive illusions", are they? People who have these beliefs should accept them being "shattered", but don't you dare interfere with the woman who believes her fetus is just a soulless bundle of cells...amirite?
This blood thing could produce dangerous situations. There could be a long delay in giving a patient a critical blood transfusion because his/her nurse who happens to be a Jehovah's witness(or some other religion I am not picking on any particular one) and is refusing to do it. I could see it happening I really can. I have been in many situations where I could barely do my own work, if I had to repeatedly stop and give blood to another person's patient sooner or later there would be an incident. Somebody is going to bleed to death while they try to find a nurse who free to hang the blood.
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No. 17
Old Aug 23, 2008, 11:06 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
Originally Posted by oramar View Post
This blood thing could produce dangerous situations. There could be a long delay in giving a patient a critical blood transfusion because his/her nurse who happens to be a Jehovah's witness(or some other religion I am not picking on any particular one) and is refusing to do it. I could see it happening I really can. I have been in many situations where I could barely do my own work, if I had to repeatedly stop and give blood to another person's patient sooner or later there would be an incident. Somebody is going to bleed to death while they try to find a nurse who free to hang the blood.
That's okay, though, because it's about us, not the patient!
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No. 18
from Bortaz, RN
Old Aug 23, 2008, 11:07 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
Originally Posted by hypocaffeinemia View Post
Then the obvious answer is to not choose a profession and a job where you just might be required to give up your morality.

What this regulation does is gives those that made a poor decision to choose a profession and job where they must face conflicts of conscience a legal out. Instead of accepting personal responsibility for a poor fit, they instead blame their employer for not bending to the their beliefs and/or whims.

When we discourage personal responsibility in favor of government babysitting, everybody loses.
And lose years or decades of compassionate care from every person that chooses not to pursue nursing due to a moral incompatibility with a small part of the profession. I don't believe that's worth it.

I meant to say earlier, by the way, that I agree with you that a pro-life nurse shouldn't be working in an abortion clinic. However, I think this law is meant for workers who encounter an objectionable case in their everyday duties, no matter where they are, and not just some busybody Christian who demanded to work at Abortions R Us and then wouldn't do the work due to being pro-life.
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No. 19
from Bortaz, RN
Old Aug 23, 2008, 11:08 PM

Default Re: Regulation Proposed to Help Protect Health Care Providers from Discrimination
Originally Posted by hypocaffeinemia View Post
That's okay, though, because it's about us, not the patient!
If you're going to act like a child, I'll move on down the road and leave you to your discussion.
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