Obamacare and Nursing.. what do you think? - page 8

I know that I am possibly opening up a can of ugly worms. I hope that in spite of differing opinions, that this thread can remain friendly and a simple exchange of ideas and opinions. As a... Read More

  1. by   liono
    Quote from Saiderap
    Why can't Obama Care cost the same amount as auto insurance or home insurance

    instead of the outrageous amounts people are talking about?
    Simple, there is no collateral in healthcare insurance.
  2. by   Saiderap
    Quote from MunoRN
    How would that be possible? We spend $120,000,000 on auto claims, and $2,700,000,000,000 on health claims, so of course the premiums will be higher, much higher since we spend about 20 thousand times as much on healthcare as we do on car repair claims.
    Let's suppose they get rid of all the health insurance fraud.

    If this is possible then do you think they might be able to get health insurance down to a lower price than it is right now?
  3. by   SC_RNDude
    Quote from Saiderap
    Let's suppose they get rid of all the health insurance fraud.

    If this is possible then do you think they might be able to get health insurance down to a lower price than it is right now?
    There are many reasons why auto and home insurance is relatively cheap compared to health insurance. Some of those reasons:

    -Auto and home insurance is real insurance. It pays only for when really bad things happen. It doesn't pay for routine things like tires, oil changes, painting your house, visits from the plumber.

    -Auto and home insurance premiums are based on real risk. It's not the same price for all. A 21 year old male driving his Ferrari will pay a lot more for insurance then grandma in her Buick.

    -There is much more competition in the home and auto insurance market.

    -When insurance does pay for claims, the products and services that are being paid for are in a real market. Home and auto repairs are in a market where prices are based on competition, supply, and demand. This does not exist in healthcare.
  4. by   MunoRN
    Quote from SC_RNDude
    There are many reasons why auto and home insurance is relatively cheap compared to health insurance. Some of those reasons:

    -Auto and home insurance is real insurance. It pays only for when really bad things happen. It doesn't pay for routine things like tires, oil changes, painting your house, visits from the plumber.

    -Auto and home insurance premiums are based on real risk. It's not the same price for all. A 21 year old male driving his Ferrari will pay a lot more for insurance then grandma in her Buick.

    -There is much more competition in the home and auto insurance market.

    -When insurance does pay for claims, the products and services that are being paid for are in a real market. Home and auto repairs are in a market where prices are based on competition, supply, and demand. This does not exist in healthcare.
    I would think the most obvious reason health insurance costs more than auto and home insurance is that insurance cost is directly related to the costs it is covering. We spend not twice as much, not three times as much fixing people as we do fixing cars, but 23,000 times as much. It makes you wonder why we spend so much on car insurance, not the other way around.

    If having a functioning car was comparable to having a functioning body then the dynamics of both types of insurance would be comparable, but it's not. If I show up at a body shop with a mangled car, and cannot present any evidence I will be able to pay the bill, the shop is under absolutely no obligation to fix my car. If I show up at an ER with a mangled body, the ER is legally required to fix me regardless of the cost and regardless of my potential ability to pay the bill.

    In order for true market forces to work, a product has to be subject to supply and demand, and preferable should be something we can do without with if the market can't provide it at a fair price. Healthcare doesn't work that way, for our most expensive care, you can't shop around, although we do at least have insurance companies that do that for us. Nobody cares if a teenager gets priced out of driving a ferrari, we hold a different view on someone being priced out of cancer treatment.
  5. by   smartnurse1982
    Why can't EMTLA be revoked? I know Ronald Reagan signed it into law.

    I'm just curious.
    Many politicians and citizens think that the treatment they receive in the ER is free.
    I know my state gives money to the hospitals every year because these hospitals would otherwise close. There are too many people who don't want to carry health insurance,because they believe they can just walk in and receive free treatment,and the sad thing is some politicians are telling them that.
  6. by   SC_RNDude
    Quote from MunoRN
    I would think the most obvious reason health insurance costs more than auto and home insurance is that insurance cost is directly related to the costs it is covering. We spend not twice as much, not three times as much fixing people as we do fixing cars, but 23,000 times as much. It makes you wonder why we spend so much on car insurance, not the other way around.

    If having a functioning car was comparable to having a functioning body then the dynamics of both types of insurance would be comparable, but it's not. If I show up at a body shop with a mangled car, and cannot present any evidence I will be able to pay the bill, the shop is under absolutely no obligation to fix my car. If I show up at an ER with a mangled body, the ER is legally required to fix me regardless of the cost and regardless of my potential ability to pay the bill.

    In order for true market forces to work, a product has to be subject to supply and demand, and preferable should be something we can do without with if the market can't provide it at a fair price. Healthcare doesn't work that way, for our most expensive care, you can't shop around, although we do at least have insurance companies that do that for us. Nobody cares if a teenager gets priced out of driving a ferrari, we hold a different view on someone being priced out of cancer treatment.
    Sounds like you are saying that healthcare insurance is nothing like home or car insurance, and that a true healthcare market doesn't really exist.

    I agree.

    However, if our insurance was ONLY for our most expensive care for which, like you said, we can't really shop around for (although the cancer care example you used I would disagree that we couldn't shop around for that), healthcare insurance and healthcare services would be much more affordable.
  7. by   Saiderap
    Quote from tewdles
    So will this involve some sort of "death panel" to determine who it is reasonable to treat and who is not treated and allowed to die?
    Why It Is So Difficult to Kill the Death Panel Myth - Forbes
  8. by   nurseprnRN
    Update:
    This has been the week to kill the Republican myth that Obamacare isn't really getting the uninsured covered, that the law is failing in its primary mission. So much for that.
    There was the Urban Institute: "Number of Uninsured Adults Continues to Fall under the ACA: Down by 8.0 Million in June 2014"

    Then the Commonwealth Fund:
    The uninsured rate for people ages 19 to 64 declined from 20 percent in the July-to-September 2013 period to 15 percent in the April-to-June 2014 period. An estimated 9.5 million fewer adults were uninsured.
    And Gallup:
    The uninsured rate in the U.S. fell 2.2 percentage points to 13.4% in the second quarter of 2014. This is the lowest quarterly average recorded since Gallup and Healthways began tracking the percentage of uninsured Americans in 2008.
    And RAND:
    Using a survey fielded by the RAND American Life Panel, we estimate a net gain of 9.3 million in the number of American adults with health insurance coverage from September 2013 to mid-March 2014. […] [T]he survey estimates that the share of uninsured American adults has dropped over the measured period from 20.5 percent to 15.8 percent.
    Add to that last month's finding by the Kaiser Family Foundation that 57 percent of the people with Obamacare had previously been uninsured.
  9. by   laborer
    Obama Care++++
  10. by   toomuchbaloney
    But republican myths and lies are never adequately debunked that they actually go away or "conservatives" stop believing them or repeating them.
  11. by   Dewman
    Well, since we're being political:
    Obamacare is fatally flawed by design. It is financially unsupportable, primarily because the "young immortals" who would pay premiums but not financially drain the system, are simply NOT signing up, BECAUSE they believe they are young and immortal, and simply don't need it.
    Also, the TRUTH does NOT become "myths and lies" just because you call it that.
  12. by   MunoRN
    Quote from Dewman
    Well, since we're being political:
    Obamacare is fatally flawed by design. It is financially unsupportable, primarily because the "young immortals" who would pay premiums but not financially drain the system, are simply NOT signing up, BECAUSE they believe they are young and immortal, and simply don't need it.
    Also, the TRUTH does NOT become "myths and lies" just because you call it that.
    I thought the ACA was supposedly unconstitutional because it forced people to buy insurance, how can it both force people to buy insurance and also be fatally flawed because it doesn't?
  13. by   Dewman
    It DOES "force" people to have insurance, or pay a penalty. Unless you are in one of the many groups which have been granted (temporary) exemptions from the penalty.

    But the penalty right now is minimal - so minimal in fact, that it is being ignored, or simply accepted because the penalty costs less than the insurance.

    Another flaw is that even if implemented, it would flood the market with tens of millions of new customers, with no corresponding increase in the supplier base. Supply and demand dictates increased waiting times for scarce resources.

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