NURSING...the to die for career...hmm

tewdles, RN · Mar 13, 2013

I don't understand much of anything about pensions, retirement, social security.
When I was a young adult I assumed I and my husband would work, live within our means, save what we could, and, baring unforeseen circumstances, take care of ourselves in our "old age", i.e., retirement.
Honest to God I thought social security was only for people who needed aid, I knew taxes were taken out of my paycheck but thought that money was for those in need, not for my retirement.
Consequently my husband and I still live modestly, have a lot of money in our retirements accounts, and are doing fine thank you very much.
Just saying......?
PS I am a fiscally conservative bleeding heart democrat. I would be happy to have social security be means tested.

My dh and I also lived frugally, worked hard, and saved for our retirement.

About 10 years ago my dh had a medically urgent need, got surgery and a nice hospital stay with lots of after care that was ALL denied by our health insurance company.

We survived this without bankrupcy BECAUSE we were frugal and lived within our means...of course, we no longer have a savings or retirement fund and are now in our early 60's and late 50's.

Who knows what the future holds for each of us...

lkulmann · Mar 14, 2013

Nursing is a job that carries so many responsibilities, high stress and imo are the backbone of healthcare. Bedside nurses run the clinical aspect of the patient care. We are there at the bedside 24/7. As I read through these threads I am sad for the new grads who feel unsupported and I feel even more so for the bedside nurses that get thrown under the bus...the nurses in Texas come to mind. It would be ideal for a nurse union to advocate and protect the nurses in the less fortunate situations. When you have these monster healthcare systems who are looking at the bottom line only, the unprotected nurse gets thrown under the bus especially to send a clear message to the rest of nursing. As time goes on and as time changes I hope to see nurses in the dame category as firefighters, police officers and the professions that enjoy the benefits of OPTIONAL early retirement, 20-25yr minimum eligibility and decent healthcare and pension. We deserve it. Its called respect, formal public respect :)

SC_RNDude · Mar 14, 2013

When there are a group of nurses that have a mixture of new nurses and seasoned 20+yr nurses, that is a large diverse pool of nursing skills! Sounds like your still a little green SC and a national union that is OPTIONAL would be ideal for you :)

I'm new to nursing, that doesn't mean I'm green. I've been in the working world for 20+ years. This includes time in a union, time in management, experience as a state gov't employee, and time running my own business. I bet my experience gives me a much broader perspective on things then many nurses.

I'm game though. I'll consider a union. Let me tell you about my current job first. I work at a major metropolitan hospital, which is also a Level I trauma center. I haven't been there a year yet, but already get 4 1/2 weeks PTO a year. I get paid for committee meetings, OT, training, etc.. I wish I was paid more (who doesn't), but I live in an area that many people desire to live in. However, it still affords me a pretty good quality of life,...just bought a new home, a new car a year ago, get to go on vacations, etc. My benefits are pretty good, including health insurance at a very fair price. I'm often asked to work extra shifts, but have never been forced too and have never felt threatened if I say no. In fact, in 10 months have probably worked 3 or 4. Staffing is good most of the time, at times good be better. My schedule is as requested probably 98% of the time, get reimbursed for education, get to be on committees that have a say in how our unit is run.

So, now it's your turn. What would a union, especially a national union, do for me?

I agree that the diverse pool of nurses is good. You are the one who wants to get rid of the experienced ones, based on a previous post of yours.

lkulmann · Mar 14, 2013

SC...I'm so excited for your enthusiasm and that's how I actually felt my whole career. I know that feeling, but there are so many other nurses in not very good work environments. The same idea you express applies...the pay is good or the pension or whatever makes it worth it. That's how it starts. As you grow and become more seasoned you'll see that little by little those perks fade. Your salary is probably going to be as low as new hirees. Then the budget is mysteriously cut and you'll be working short more often. The changes are subtle and you learn to take on more and more. You'll start going without lunch. Your parking will no longer be free. A union will not allow those little changes. Remember non union workers are not protected at all. You may **** someone off and before you know it you can be out of a job. Female nurses are already getting put off that male nurses make more money and climb the corperate ladder quicker than woman. All I'm saying is that nurses are not united and therefore vulnerable if not protected by a union. My whole issue in this thread is that the typical union is not the best option. Nurses need a more tailored union to fit our needs so we are united and protected and the nursing profession would be the to die for career :) putting 20-25yrs of time in nursing and making it optional would be best, imo. No one likes to be forced to join anything. If you want to work in nursing for 50yrs go for it, but 20-25 should make you eligible for early retirement pension.

lkulmann · Mar 14, 2013

We are not getting rid of experienced nurses...just cutting the deadwood nurses who really need to be elsewhere. You'll see :)

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Mar 14, 2013

I'm new to nursing, that doesn't mean I'm green. I've been in the working world for 20+ years. This includes time in a union, time in management, experience as a state gov't employee, and time running my own business. I bet my experience gives me a much broader perspective on things then many nurses.
I'm game though. I'll consider a union. Let me tell you about my current job first. I work at a major metropolitan hospital, which is also a Level I trauma center. I haven't been there a year yet, but already get 4 1/2 weeks PTO a year. I get paid for committee meetings, OT, training, etc.. I wish I was paid more (who doesn't), but I live in an area that many people desire to live in. However, it still affords me a pretty good quality of life,...just bought a new home, a new car a year ago, get to go on vacations, etc. My benefits are pretty good, including health insurance at a very fair price. I'm often asked to work extra shifts, but have never been forced too and have never felt threatened if I say no. In fact, in 10 months have probably worked 3 or 4. Staffing is good most of the time, at times good be better. My schedule is as requested probably 98% of the time, get reimbursed for education, get to be on committees that have a say in how our unit is run.
So, now it's your turn. What would a union, especially a national union, do for me?
I agree that the diverse pool of nurses is good. You are the one who wants to get rid of the experienced ones, based on a previous post of yours.

^Yes!! :yes:

There are a lot of us who come from various backgrounds as well as have been exposed to the many settings that you speak of SC_RN Dude, in and out of nursing. Well said!

What OP needs to understand, is that there are many that are in a great position in their careers, and the "issues" are not privy to nursing, and have equal ways of being resolved as well as support.

I have a job that has the same package that the SC_RN has described. I also get pension after two years, as well as retirement, legal/malpractice protection through a legal fund, healthcare, dental, life insurance, work/life balance, education, even assistance on finding a home (although I already have a mortgage)...the list goes on-committee, CEUs, education, strong clinical ladder and making sure EVERYONE is up to date on education; theory and skills, including doctors. Very collaborative approach that works 95% of the time.

I also worked at non-profit and was a 1099'er. I'm saving sooo much money returning to the ranks of w2 status. I understand that orgs who offer extensive packages, work/life and clinical ladder wages (ok wages the wages jump after the 1st-2nd year and beyond) have the picking because many people want to work for places that offer such packages, and it makes it competitive. Should these benefits be offered across the board for people, absolutely. Should unions be involved? That's relative....factor in costs of living in certain areas, economic climate as well. This stuff is not so black and white.

lkulmann · Mar 14, 2013

Lady free...you are sooo anti union. You would fit nicely in my union because its OPTIONAL...you just check the NO box. Unions should be optional. I choose unity and protection, you don't. I want to create an early retirement pension IN ADDITION to all of the typical benefits you mention. BTW, the benefits you mention are typical standard benefits. I made just under $50.00/hr NOT including shift diff and non union. The California union nurses are making $55-85.00/hr about $100,000.00/yr fully protected and 5:1 pt nurse ratio. We must demand better. If the CEO of the hospital is making 2 million/yr they could afford to take much better care of the nurses. These corporations are making money tons of money and tossing us a bone in exchange..

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Mar 14, 2013

If you read my OP, I am PRO-union.

I also have all those benefits WITHOUT a union that you speak of...pretty good for "typical" benefits IMHO... :sarcastic:

CA's rates are like that because of the COLA.

Where I live, I will make that money within 5-10 years of my career, which works, because of the clinical ladder model.

How can nurses make that amount when the COLA doesn't match up??? How can you propose this without taking into account poorer states???

Like I stated before, it not as black and white as it seems...it's a nice theory to have a union, however, unions have changed directions due to the fact that corporations have moved overseas in the 80s due to deregulation, and saw that as a loophole to get away from the union's accountability. Wages have been stagnant for almost a generation as a result of this, including nurses. That is across the board and the reality.

Corporations are the largest employers of nurses, as well as other individuals. If the wages cannot be supported where EVERYONE is not affected negatively, then I'm all for it. I have seen a hospital close after making negotiations with their nurses after they were in strike. The corp did not have any money. There was a physicans organization and the physicians and nurses union that helped run the hospital for a little over a year before they ran out of money.

Thankfully, they were able to get jobs at local hospitals, including a nearby hospital where the nurses and doctors unions were employed. This example I'm giving you, not many areas have that luxury...they may be the ONLY hospital in the area.

If you are about protecting the patients, you have to consider the financial stability and hospital economics, medicare reimbursements, costs, etc...consider what factors can go towards improvement of nursing employees, and go from there.

I'm coming from a systems theory perspective.

When you have systems in place, you can look at a system as a whole, decide what factors that are leading to WHY a particular system is not working, and go from there-Quality Improvement guideline method, SBAR (military origin) method, critical pathway models are used methodically as well for solutions.

There are many EBP studies that address such factors, and can be used at facilities. The ones I work at have such practices in place, and continue to use these methods collaboratively by nurses. Nurses have a seat at the table far up into senior management.

Again, one of my posts state how there are plenty of facilities that have less of these issues, are PRO Nursing, and there are the ones in between or have non-existent policies. The focus of unions are to go to those facilities. For the ones that are doing well, like the one that nurses like me, SC and others are employed by, what can an optional union do for me that the labor board, my local nurses associations (I have a few that I am a part of) can do that they are doing already??? WHY would I want that option if my wages are comfortable, my work-life balance is taking into account and a supportive environment is supported????

I am still wondering if you have researched EBP, attended you local chapters of nursing orgs if you gave them in your area, found a way to propose what systems need improving.

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Mar 14, 2013

This is why I am for improvements on a political level. If things are so DIRE, then a precedent needs to be set, away from interest groups and corps....just my IMHO.

lkulmann · Mar 14, 2013

Lady free...as I said, you would check the NO box in my 'union' you are in a good spot it seems. Not all facilities are as wonderful as yours is, that's why there are unions. The dept of labor will protect you if the issue is discrimination related only without a union contract. We are at will employees otherwise. As far as evidence based practice, that is the standard on paper, but it doesn't necessarily mean its being practiced.Systems are slow to change as you said and these monster corporations are all about the bottom line, money. In my heart and soul I believe that nurses and management should be able to work in sync for patient centered care. Somewhere along the way, money and power have become the focus of priorities. The nurse and the patients are source of money. There is a very fine line that has been crossed in healthcare. Money is more important than lives. Nurses need to put nursing on the map, unite and band together nationally.

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Mar 15, 2013

Lady free...as I said, you would check the NO box in my 'union' you are in a good spot it seems. Not all facilities are as wonderful as yours is, that's why there are unions.

My last point was for unions in those cases...so???

The dept of labor will protect you if the issue is discrimination related only without a union contract. We are at will employees otherwise.

Again, a point I expressed...MOST nurses are AT WILL....there is a system in place for nurses to exercise their power, not ONLY discrimination, but lunch breaks, unsafe working situations, etc...

As far as evidence based practice, that is the standard on paper, but it doesn't necessarily mean its being practiced.

Are you SURE about that?? What information do you have on that???

If it is not being practiced in your area, it can be introduced more so without union...or on a political level...IMHO...

Systems are slow to change as you said and these monster corporations are all about the bottom line, money. In my heart and soul I believe that nurses and management should be able to work in sync for patient centered care. Somewhere along the way, money and power have become the focus of priorities. The nurse and the patients are source of money. There is a very fine line that has been crossed in healthcare. Money is more important than lives. Nurses need to put nursing on the map, unite and band together nationally.

^There is NO line, and hasn't been one for almost 15-30 years....when the last dose of trickle down economics was proposed. It took longer than others to see it, but it has been around for a generation.

Hmmm...UNITE and band together?? What in your perspective makes nurses so "fractional"???

I think that with our profession being as diverse as it is nationally and on AN, there is a place for everybody, and people have their niche, as well as nurses who do band together and unite. The state I am in has an very active and healthy legislative body, as well as organizations that come together and are specified for their specialty. They unite together on a national level, have local and national conferences to discuss improvements, provide support, etc. They are using EBP to make sure that they are not churing out too many new grads that can't find work, making sure school nurses are not being cut, as well as hiring qulaitfied individuals as school nurses, working to establish staffing ratios,etc...patient/family centered care (minus the "customer service corporate model") is discussed at conferences, local chapters, making sure nurses are at the forefront to design and drive this model, rather than the current model we have in place. These EBPs that are a reality are being discussed at a national level.

Nursing is not going away, nursing is here to stay. I just find that last part of your comment perplexing, given that there are CNOs and nursing administrators in hospitals facilties, and in home care agencies.

I also find that my question was not answered...what assessments have you or are you willing to DO to make this successful?? Not articles of unions merging with nurses, or the NNU website either. What is your comprehensive plan to make this work, without having a situation that I stated in my last post occur???

If you are in an area where nurses are so fractured and not have a voice, have you reached out to them??? Does your area have local chapters of nursing associations or specialty nursing assoications? If they are not assiting in helping promote local working issues, then maybe its time for you to get involved like that, or reach out to them.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Mar 15, 2013

Well this is my logic. First, many public first responders and healthcare workers have that early retirement pension. Nursing fits nicely into that category. It doesn't mean you retire at that age, you collect at retirement age. The second reason and more important IMO, is getting the old dead wood management staff out and the senior nurses out after training the new grad nurses. Keeps it moving growing evolving... science changes.There are new grad that need jobs leaving posts everywhere on this site. They can't get hired BC they have no experience...that's laughable. Old staff out new staff in.

Your enthusiasm is admirable. I know you have been burned recently for whistle blowing and I am sorry for that.....but a union will not get the

dead wood management staff out and the senior nurses out after training the new grad nurses.

Unions protect the seniority of the workplace with a vengeance, lay off's, work reductions, vacations, promotions, lunches, cancellation.......everything is seniority based. No matter how hard you try ....union or no union the administrative folks who have the purse strings are experienced older folks that have learned to manipulate the system to protect themselves.

Just remember that if you change the system successfully you will probably be the

old dead wood

by the time it's place into action which will have you one of the

senior nurses out after training the new grad nurses.

Be careful what you wish for....it just might come true.

I wish you the best