NURSING...the to die for career...hmm - page 4

by lkulmann 9,503 Views | 93 Comments

Teachers, Police, Firefighters, Military, Government City/State and Nursing. What do they all have in common? Early Retirement Benefits! Whoopsies...all except for nursing. Whatsup with THAT.... Anyone?... Read More


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    Quote from ♪♫ in my ♥
    Elkpark is right on the money, here. What has to give?

    The reality is that nurses are fairly easy and inexpensive to train (as compared to pilots, for example), the barrier to entry, ADN or BSN, is not that high, and at worst, they're very easy to import.

    I don't know how old you are, lkulmann, nor how long you've been a nurse, but from a seasoned perspective I'll say that you're kidding yourself.

    NEVER going to happen. NEVER.

    (Nor do I think it *should*, for that matter)
    I love a challenge. I feel passionate about this topic and I'm salivating at the thought of making it happen just to prove that you should "never say never" especially to me
  2. 0
    Quote from ♪♫ in my ♥

    The reality is that nurses are fairly easy and inexpensive to train (as compared to pilots, for example), the barrier to entry, ADN or BSN, is not that high, and at worst, they're very easy to import.

    NEVER going to happen. NEVER.

    (Nor do I think it *should*, for that matter)
    I can't help but wonder why so negative and against nurses unionizing on a national level...?
  3. 4
    Quote from lkulmann
    I can't help but wonder why so negative and against nurses unionizing on a national level...?
    I can only speak for myself, but I certainly was not suggesting that unionization of nurses could never occur (although I don't think it's likely -- I've been in nursing for nearly 30 years now, and trying to get nurses to agree about anything is like trying to herd cats; we are our own worst enemies, IMO), nor do I think that is a bad thing. My only point was that your specific idea of a comfy retirement package after 20 or 25 years of service is never going to happen.
    KelRN215, Altra, ♪♫ in my ♥, and 1 other like this.
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    Quote from lkulmann

    I can't help but wonder why so negative and against nurses unionizing on a national level...?
    ^My response is not negative, but if the reality of how diverse our profession is to the point that nurses unionizing in a national level isn't so black and white. It will take grass-roots positioning, however, there are many who have made wise decisions and have been able to be financially stable, ready for retirement or semi retirement; they may not see the need to have a nurses union to protect wages. Or for those who are entrepreneurs that make contracts and working conditions and advocate for themselves, would they need such "protection?" We are a diverse profession, that had to be taken into consideration.


    As part of a family that have unionized members and military members, I see a lot of parallels in nursing that have been implemented already, as well as more that can be done; however this has to be done using our "nursing process":

    You need to assess the various aspects of nursing, like you see here on AN.

    Next, what can we diagnose what "nursing problem" needs to be addressed, specifically.

    Next, define a goal. What goals should the profession make that are not being addressed? What takes priority?

    What plans/interventions are needed and in what amount of time?

    Decide what processes have already been in place that needs to be reached to ALL nurses.

    For example; If its wages, that is relative to cost of living...it it should be on pace with GDP and inflation, and/or a tier-based clinical-ladder model (places like the VA have this in place; certain hospitals, including Magnet facilities have this in place as well), maybe both should be factored in when in comes to wages.


    If it's working conditions, utilize evidence-based practice to decide on skill-mix and ratios. I did a research proposal in my Nursing Theory class as a student. There are plenty of EBP research about the benefits of skill mix, skilled hours, proposals to improved skilled hours in conjunction with technology, ways to incorporate a healthy skill mix, etc. Find out what hospitals are having which models that keep people there and (for the most part-at LEAST 75-90%) HAPPY??? Are people wiling to or elevating their practice, as well as their facility has that in place??

    There are more factors, like ethical dilemmas, and inclusion practices that increase diversity, which are in place at most facilities.

    My point, again, is it is shortsighted to look at our profession-I have seen some posters opinion here on AN where they don't consider nursing as a "profession"-to incorporate a "united front" you have to look at the various factors and address common aspects that nurses can ALL agree to, and that's not realistic, because we are not always going to agree, people, evolve and change. There has to be, for me, a consistency in flexibility, in our profession.
  5. 1
    Quote from lkulmann
    I can't help but wonder why so negative and against nurses unionizing on a national level...?
    Not negative really.....just well versed in the nursing community. This scenario has played out over and over again.....It played out in MA when the MNA, the state nursing organization, decided to become the collective bargaining unit (union) for Massachusetts Nurses. There was a huge row between those who were pro-union and those who weren't ending with the development of two separate groups.

    The MNA (now affiliated with the NNU) and MARN (Massachusetts Association of Registered Nurses, non union) and the BON. So technically three organizations represent nurses in my state. They fight and bicker and counter act the good either of them do for the profession. To get them to all sit around and sing Kumbya ......doubtful.

    Do I think nurses need to get a long and ban together? Yes. Do I know that those who try to bring a union to a hospital are often targeted and canned? Yes. Have I seen them black balled from other facilities after they failed, been sacked from other facilities? Yes.

    Your ambitions are admirable....your enthusiasm refreshing. But I think that things need to get much worse before you will get nurses to sign on....they are happy with their jobs, they don't want to get fired. They would never "walk out" and "abandon" the patients...which doesn't happen by the way.

    Me? I have mixed feelings. With the profession right now and the behavior of administrators and corporate America.....I think we need to do something RIGHT NOW.....and we need to look to the firefighters and police to see what to do next. I have seen unions do great things...but I have also seen them destroy themselves...like the coal mines and steel mills.

    I wish you the best on your journey.
    Altra likes this.
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    Okay, let's turn the wheel and get back on track. A NATIONAL UNION~ Let's call it NSO. Its a national union where nurses pay union dues for unity, protection and advocacy. It is OPTIONAL. If you want what a union represents you can elect to purchase it like health insurance. If a facility hires you for xx salary and xxx benefits perks etc...its a contract. If they want a union nurse with a contract they hire that nurse, if not they can hire a non union nurse who has no union protection.
    Anyone?
  7. 5
    Quote from lkulmann
    Okay, let's turn the wheel and get back on track. A NATIONAL UNION~ Let's call it NSO. Its a national union where nurses pay union dues for unity, protection and advocacy. It is OPTIONAL. If you want what a union represents you can elect to purchase it like health insurance. If a facility hires you for xx salary and xxx benefits perks etc...its a contract. If they want a union nurse with a contract they hire that nurse, if not they can hire a non union nurse who has no union protection.
    Anyone?
    I didn't realize we were off track -- we have all been discussing your proposal (you just don't like the responses you're getting ). But, okay -- as long as it is the employer's choice whether or not to hire a member of your "union," as you propose, and there are non-union nurses around willing to work for lower salary and less generous benefits (and, in nursing, there always are), why on earth would an employer hire a member of the union? That's the entire point of unions in other occupations organizing entire facilities/organizations. What kind of "advocacy and protection" can a union offer if the employer can simply hire comparable non-unionized nurses?
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    Most Canadian facilities are unionized. There are pros and cons. Some areas have stronger unions than others. Bottom line: you're in the union whether you like it or not. There is really no "opt out" clause. If a facility is unionized, all nursing staff belong to that union, run by the Province and dues are automatically deducted. Based on the tactics I've read on AN, I'm thankful we have a union. Still, it's far from perfect.
    Last edit by joanna73 on Mar 10, '13 : Reason: sp error corrected
    Fiona59 likes this.
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    But, okay -- as long as it is the employer's choice whether or not to hire a member of your "union," as you propose, and there are nonj-union nurses around willing to work for lower salary and less generous benefits (and, in nursing, there always are), why on earth would animn employer hire a member of the union? That's the entire point of unions in other occupations organizing entire facilities/organizations. What kind of "advocacy and protection" can a union offer if the employer can simply hire comparable non-unionized nurses?[/QUOTE]

    In my NATIONAL OPTIONAL UNION the union nurses get their own jobs. Wages are the same as non union nurses. The jobs are not the concern. Its the protection and unity for the profession that is my concern.
    EXAMPLE : Two nurses work for LL Hospital. One is union one is not. The union nurse comes with certain conditions ie...5:1 pt/ nurse ratio, mandatory 8hr COVERED break, CNA with her assignment, just basic labor laws and pt safety issues and quality of care issues GUARANTEED. show about paid lunch and OT after 8hrs. The list goes on and on....
    Why would a nurse choose NOT to join the union?
  10. 5
    Quote from lkulmann
    But, okay -- as long as it is the employer's choice whether or not to hire a member of your "union," as you propose, and there are nonj-union nurses around willing to work for lower salary and less generous benefits (and, in nursing, there always are), why on earth would animn employer hire a member of the union? That's the entire point of unions in other occupations organizing entire facilities/organizations. What kind of "advocacy and protection" can a union offer if the employer can simply hire comparable non-unionized nurses?

    In my NATIONAL OPTIONAL UNION the union nurses get their own jobs. Wages are the same as non union nurses. The jobs are not the concern. Its the protection and unity for the profession that is my concern.
    EXAMPLE : Two nurses work for LL Hospital. One is union one is not. The union nurse comes with certain conditions ie...5:1 pt/ nurse ratio, mandatory 8hr COVERED break, CNA with her assignment, just basic labor laws and pt safety issues and quality of care issues GUARANTEED. show about paid lunch and OT after 8hrs. The list goes on and on....
    Why would a nurse choose NOT to join the union?
    Why would a hospital hire a nurse that came with these conditions when they have the option to hire another nurse who doesn't? Look at what hospitals have been doing lately... they're cutting hours, cutting benefits, eliminating raises, increasing ratios and they're still finding nurses to work for them.

    This is not a realistic scenario... Individual members just joining some national union, applying for a job at a private hospital which does not have a collective bargaining agreement with said union and saying "I am a member of the union, so I come with the following stipulations." The hospital will undoubtedly say "NEXT". As to why nurses would choose not to join the union... because, like it or not, it's human nature to choose yourself first. If it makes you more likely to obtain employment and you need a salary, you'll take the poor working conditions.

    I've never heard of a scenario like what you describe. Nurses who are represented by a nurses' union are employed by a facility that has a collective bargaining agreement with the union. I, as an individual nurse, would have gotten absolutely nowhere if I had elected to join my state's nurses' union and then gone to management at my non-union hospital and said "you now must enter into a contract with me because I am in the union." I would have been told where I could find the door. The union in my state would not even meet with an individual nurse... unions are all about organizing and an individual cannot organize with himself or herself.


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