Is Health Care a Right? - page 36

Just want to see your opinion (friendly discussion, no flaming, please). Is health care a right that should be enjoyed equally here in the U.S.? If so, how would this be financed without breaking... Read More

  1. by   kmchugh
    Originally posted by JMP
    Where is the question Kevin?
    Oops, sorry. Question is this. Would you care to go back to the points that Susy or I made and demonstrate where we are wrong? Would you like to actually refute anything I said? In other words, can you, without the name calling, without posting something that "smacks of verbal bullying" respond to my points? Shoot, I'd even like to see you answer the simplest question I asked: At what level of taxation of my salary do I have the right to say "hey, I want to keep some of what I make for my own and my family's welfare."?

    Kevin McHugh
  2. by   JMP
    Even though it has taken some time, I went back and read and even re-read some of your posts.

    It is hard for me to sum it up any other way than I did once before-

    you presume that giving up something means you will not get something in return Kevin. Giving up something will not leave you without things.
    I work full time and contribute to the tax base, just like every other working Canadian. I can still pay my bills, go on holidays, have a savings account, drive a car, etc etc- you get my point. But at the same time, I feel comfort and stability in knowing that my fellow Canadians can get access to UNIVERSAL health care when they need it, without worry or debt.

    I have no idea in the world how your country will ever sort this business of health care out. I do however think that to try and hold on to what you have, the system that you have, the same system that leaves many people out in the cold.... based on the argument that you want to "hold on to things you worked hard for" is totally selfish and irrational. As I said, I work hard too. I contriubte to the universal health care sytem, but I still "have my things".

    As to your points about personal responiblity, I believe we as human beings have the personal responsiblity to ensure those less fortunate, less educated, less able to cope have access to decent and fair health care.

    Somewhere along your line of education Kevin you must have taken an epidemiology course that dealt with social status as a determinant of health? The less access people have to health care, the lower they are on the social scale, the less power they have the more likely they are to die of chronic illness, suffer poor outcomes etc.

    It is one of the great truths of universal health care.



    Kevin your posts reveal some fear of "having your pockets dipped into" this type of thinking, in light of what I have been saying is short sighted, in my opinion. Perhaps you feel that is not selfish. I see it as selfish, but that is a Canadian's view. If you where to say to me " well JMP if you could opt out of the health care system and you could save money" would I do it??????? No. Simply since I know it works, I live in place where it works and I know that all of my fellow citizens have fair and equal access.

    As you my statement about verbal bullying- I stand by that. You have made statements to those who disagree with you that smack of it. Perhaps you are used to people backing down. I know that you may find this inflames you, and I am sorry if you do. It is just my own opinion. I don't feel however that this important subject- important to your country, should NOT be boiled down to what you think of me and what I think of you......... we should agree to disagree and move on. My opinion.
    Last edit by JMP on Feb 16, '03
  3. by   Sally_ICURN
    Originally posted by kmchugh
    Shoot, I'd even like to see you answer the simplest question I asked: At what level of taxation of my salary do I have the right to say "hey, I want to keep some of what I make for my own and my family's welfare."?
    The simple answers:

    orginally posted by feistynurse
    http://www.pnhp.org/nhibill/nhi_execsumm.html

    With over 42 million uninsured Americans, and another 40 million who are under insured, the time has come to change our inefficient and costly fragmented health care system. The USNHI program would reduce overall annual health care spending by over $50 billion in the first year. In addition, because it implements effective methods of cost-control, health spending is contained over time, ensuring affordable health care to future generations.

    In its first year, single-payer will save over $150 billion on paperwork and $50 billion by using rational bulk purchasing of medications. These savings are more than enough to cover all the uninsured, improve coverage for everyone else, including medication coverage and long-term care.

    Employers who currently provide coverage for their employees pay an average of 8.5% of payroll towards health coverage, while many employers can't afford to provide coverage at all. Under this Act, all employers will pay a modest 3.3% payroll tax per employee, while eliminating their payments towards private health plans. The average cost to an employer for an employee earning $35,000 per year will be reduced to $1,155, less than $100 per month.

    The United States Congress will establish annual funding outlays for the USNHI Program through an annual entitlement. The USNHI program will operate under the auspices of the Dept of Health & Human Services, and be administered in the former Medicare offices. All current expenditures for public health insurance programs such as S-CHIP, Medicaid, and Medicare will be placed into the USNHI program.
    AGAIN:

    http://www.coveringtheuninsured.org

    There are 41.2 uninsured people in the US. 10 million are kids.

    The uninsured represent 14 percent of the population.

    Eight out of 10 uninsured Americans are from working families.

    9.2 million uninsured people have family incomes at or below the federal poverty level.
    13.8 million have incomes under $25,000.
    12.7 million have incomes between $25,000 and $49,999.
    6.4 million have incomes between $50,000 and $74,999.
    5.5 million have incomes that are at least $75,000.

    The United States comes in 6th behind Norway, Australia, Canada, Sweden, and Belgium AND we spend more per capita on healthcare...how can this be? Answer: For-profit healthcare systems AND governmental system that DO NOT work.

    orginally posted by maureeno
    www.familiesusa.org

    Annual MEDIAN Executive income Exclusive of Stock Options over $11,000,000. MEDIAN value of unexcercised stock options $42,000,000.

    Drug companies receive special tax credits for research and experimentation bringing their effective tax rate down from 35% to 17%.
    Not to mention the millions in salaries and stock to for-profit CEO's, et al. and the tax breaks they get at the expense of human suffering. We've heard story after story of suffering due to HMO delays and denials right here on this very message board--it's just a small sampling of what's happening in this country. Is it right that these companies get to pick and choose who they cover and what they cover and when they cover it? Is it right that WE end up paying for it anyway as these companies continue to pull in the profits? NO!

    orginally posted by feistynurse
    The Government already finances about 60% of all health care costs in the U.S.

    Private employers contribute less than 20%. We are already paying for Universal health care and not getting it!
    Kevin, don't you realize that with the way it's going now and without some profound intervention, you/we will continue to be taxed more and more as a projected 6 million more people lose their health insurance in the next year or so?

    Look at the facts. This is an awsome thread filled with TONS of information.

    Bears repeating:

    Article 25 of United Nations resolution 217A[III] adopted 12-10-1948:

    (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.


    Kevin - Single payer healthcare = $$ savings to you and your family.

    ~Sally
    Last edit by Sally_ICURN on Feb 16, '03
  4. by   JMP
    Thanks Sally, as I have said MANY times I am talking from a viewpoint of person living and working in a universal health care system and want people to know IT CAN work.
  5. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Excellent post, Sally. I agree.
  6. by   KP RN
    Here's a newsflash JMP!!
    The USA DOES indeed have a government run health insurance policy for those who are less fortunate, less educated and less able to cope. It's called Medicaid. For your information, 37% of the state budget for Ohio is earmarked to pay for medicaid. Stop bashing the USA, and stay in Canada where you are so happy.
    With all due respect, Sally, your assertions that $50 billion can be saved in the first year universal healthcare is implemeted is a completely stupid pipe dream. Do you really believe that the federal governemnt will miraculously find an additional $50 billion that a bunch of penny-pinching greedy private insurance companies collectively were unable to locate???????
  7. by   JMP
    Karen, So you do have universal health care? Funny most posting on this thread don't seem to know that. You certainly don't have universal health care by my Canadian standards.

    If you do have coverage for all who are less educated, less fortunate then why do some citizens have to loose everything for operations? Why do some citizens pray they or their family members don't get sick because they can't afford to pay the hospital bills? I don't understand it then.
  8. by   SmilingBluEyes
    We dont' have universal health care...that is so uninformed to say we do . .....tell that to the millions of UNINSURED/UNDERINSURED. Not everyone who has no health care is eligible for MEDICARE, you know.....believe me, I know of many working folks who have neither insurance or medicare. WHO takes care of them? Nobody unless they come up w/the $$$ to get treatment.
  9. by   KP RN
    Please read my post again. I did not state that we have universal health care. I stated we have a program called MEDICAID to cover the poor. MEDICARE is a program for people over the age of 65 and those who are disabled.
    As far as your Canadian standard, JMP, I'm glad you're satisfied with the quality. As I stated in an earlier post, my Canadian friends come to the USA for health care and gladly pay out of pocket to get quality, comprehensive, and TIMELY care.
    Let me say AGAIN, that many Americans who do not have health insurance choose to spend their money on other things. Almost 50% of uninsured families have incomes of greater than $55,000 annually. They are choosing to "take their chances". And, yes, I feel badly for them when an unforseen illness occurs, however, they are obligated to pay the doctor and hospital bill because they chose not to pay for health insurance.
  10. by   Stargazer
    Originally posted by KP RN
    Almost 50% of uninsured families have incomes of greater than $55,000 annually. They are choosing to "take their chances".
    Can you provide a link to your source? This contradicts the info given by fiestynurse and Sally, who did link to their sources.
  11. by   sunnygirl272
    Originally posted by Stargazer
    Can you provide a link to your source? This contradicts the info given by fiestynurse and Sally, who did link to their sources.
    yes, would love to see the source of this statistic....
  12. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Originally posted by KP RN
    .
    Let me say AGAIN, that many Americans who do not have health insurance choose to spend their money on other things. Almost 50% of uninsured families have incomes of greater than $55,000 annually. They are choosing to "take their chances". And, yes, I feel badly for them when an unforseen illness occurs, however, they are obligated to pay the doctor and hospital bill because they chose not to pay for health insurance.
    why don't you tell that to my chronically under-employed friends, who CANNOT afford health insurance??? They cannot get benefitted jobs and the pay for the jobs they CAN get sucks. It's the economy forcing many into situations like this. And it's not hard to imagine this happening in hospitals sometime in the future as hospitals decide it would be most expedient NOT to cover employees medically, rather just pay a few dollars an hour more and let the employee find his/her own coverage.

    One can NEVER say "never" and I hope you never find yourself in the place where my friends are currently. If you do, you may change your tune a bit. See, the reality is literally, for many, its either pay mortgage/rent and eat, or pay for insurance. I want to see your source, too cause I don't believe you.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Feb 17, '03
  13. by   KP RN
    The Wall Street Journal published a series of articles re: "uninsured by choice Americans" several months back. However, similar data can be found at www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba379/
    The latest census data also contains similar stats on uninsured Americans.
    Over the past decade, the numbers of uninsured people in households with annual incomes over $75,000 increased by 63%, and the number of households with annual incomes of $50-$75,000 increased by 48%.
    Almost 1/3 of the uninsured now live in households with annual incomes above $50,000.(I stand corrected, my memory isn't what it used to be--I incorrectly remembered the statistic as being 1/2, not 1/3.)
    Virtually, all children from low income families are eligible for Medicaid. Yet, the parents of 7.7 million eligible children fail to enroll them. Over half these parents said they didn't want to deal with the administrative hassles...
    As with any good or service, the purchase of health insurance has a lot to do with preferences and priorities. Many people complain about a lack of affordable health insurance, while others contend that health insurance just isn't a good value....
    Last edit by KP RN on Feb 17, '03

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