Is Health Care a Right? - page 32

Just want to see your opinion (friendly discussion, no flaming, please). Is health care a right that should be enjoyed equally here in the U.S.? If so, how would this be financed without breaking... Read More

  1. by   Stargazer
    let us also know that in most of these countries (if not all. I don't know about the 'all' part) that population does not treat nearly the number (not even close) of illegal aliens that we do.
    if I'm not mistaken, Canada, the UK and Australia also have a very significant immigrant population. And yet...(see OzNurse's numbers).
  2. by   OzNurse69
    Originally posted by Gromit
    Our country is UNMATCHED by ANY in the WORLD when it comes to charity, but there really IS an upper limit to what people will put up with.

    Dont >I< too have the right to pursue my happiness, dreams, etc? How do I do it when taxed to the point that I work just to survive?

    On the other hand, we could EASILY afford universal healthcare, if we would quit giving out all that money (that never gets paid back) to other countries to help with their suffering.
    Oh dear, Gromit, you really should check your facts before you get all cranky like that....it's not good for the blood pressure, really.

    FACT:The US pays more in dollar amounts than any other country in the world in foreign aid.

    FACT:The US pays lessas a percentage of gross national product in foreign aid of ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD!!

    (See below - figures taken from the OECD website)



    ODA in U.S. Dollars(Millions) ODA as Percentage
    of GNP


    Country 1999 2000 2001 1999 2000 2001

    1. Denmark 1,733 1,664 1,599 1.01 1.06 1.01
    2. Norway 1,370 1,264 1,346 0.91 0.8 0.83
    11. United Kingdom 3,401 4,458 4,659 0.23 0.31 0.32
    15. New Zealand 134 116 111 0.27 0.26 0.25
    17. Australia 982 995 852 0.26 0.27 0.25
    19. Canada 1,699 1,722 1,572 0.28 0.25 0.23
    22. United States 9,145 9,581 10,884 0.1 0.1 0.11

    Frankly, it all seems to be a matter of redistribution of resources -- there is plenty of money there, it is just being used for the wrong purpose.

    I'm not asking you to give up any red cents, just saying that universal health care doesn't necessarily equate to more money.

    BTW, on the illegal immigration thing, I couldn't find any official govt statistics on the money spent on illegal immigrants for health care, cos, guess what, by definition (you know, being ILLEGAL & all) they aren't entitled to any!! I'd be interested to know where you got your "figures" from....about numbers of illegal aliens treated per capita or as a percentage of GNP -- can you direct me to the appropriate survey??

    When it comes to human rights etc, in the words of another board member (sorry, would acknowledge you, but I can't remember who it was!!)....

    ....do NOT mess with me, you WILL NOT win.....:kiss
  3. by   OzNurse69
    (Bugger, that table didn't work -- sorry guys, you'll just have to line up the figures in your heads...)
  4. by   fiestynurse
    Gromit states - "Truth of it all is, however, that if the healthcare of these other countries is so great, tell me where the MAJORITY of those out of other countries go for treatment? The flow to Germany is NOTHING compared to the flow to here."

    Where did you get the idea that people from other countries are flowing to the US for health care? Why would they want to pay for expensive health care here, when they can get it free right where they are? America is the only developed country where getting sick or injured can, and all too frequently does, lead to banckruptcy. Americans are highly misinformed about the health care situation in other countries.

    And why do you think taxes would go up if we had a universal Health Plan? All the studies that have been done so far have shown savings in the billions $$. The Government already finances about 60% of all health care costs in the U.S.
    Private emplorers contribute less than 20%. We are already paying for Universal health care and not getting it!
  5. by   OzNurse69
    ^5, feisty!!
  6. by   fiestynurse
    Also, Gromit, regarding your example of a bad outcome in England's system. No system is perfect. England's system is not a single payer system, such as Canada's. It is more Socialistic in nature and has been poorly funded. Tony Blair has been trying to correct that. All systems are affected by politics and none of them are static.

    However, every developed country - with the exception of the United States - has made a genuine effort to assure that every person living in that country has health care coverage. And by and large, they have succeeded.

    Even in third world countries, health care is recognized as a human right. Florence Nightgale was an advocate for Universal Health Care in India in the 1870s.

    the United States stands alone in the world in its failure to recognize health care as a right. Instead we consider it an economic commodity. If you can afford it, you can get it. If not, you're out of luck - despite the myth that "anyone can go to the emergency room for care." The so called "safet net."
  7. by   Sally_ICURN
    Originally posted by fiestynurse
    Even in third world countries, health care is recognized as a human right.
    Heck, even Cuba under Fidel Castro guarantees healthcare for all of it's citizens!
  8. by   TNcanNURSE
    Despite the attempts to justify why healthcare should be a right, I still don't think it is. Despite the guilt trip postings, I still disagree.

    If you are this positive that the system is screwed then you should go into politics and try your speeches on the general population. Who knows, maybe you could change the entire American health care system and make it live up to your expectations. Still, even if you could change my mind (which isn't going to happen BTW) it wouldn't do you an ounce of good.

    Great! I am so happy (not too much sarcasm intended) that all of these other countries are so much better to their citizens than the US. Why don't you go over there and cash in on the rewards?
    It is a free country after all. You have the right to leave.

    Next thread: Is a free trip across the Atlantic so I can get this wonderful healthcare a "right"?

    I am terribly sorry if this offends certain members. I just can't help it. Reading this thread ticks me off. On with the show.........
  9. by   Gromit
    Originally posted by OzNurse69
    Oh dear, Gromit, you really should check your facts before you get all cranky like that....it's not good for the blood pressure, really.

    FACT:The US pays more in dollar amounts than any other country in the world in foreign aid.

    FACT:The US pays lessas a percentage of gross national product in foreign aid of ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD!!



    BTW, on the illegal immigration thing, I couldn't find any official govt statistics on the money spent on illegal immigrants for health care, cos, guess what, by definition (you know, being ILLEGAL & all) they aren't entitled to any!! I'd be interested to know where you got your "figures" from....about numbers of illegal aliens treated per capita or as a percentage of GNP -- can you direct me to the appropriate survey??

    When it comes to human rights etc, in the words of another board member (sorry, would acknowledge you, but I can't remember who it was!!)....

    ....do NOT mess with me, you WILL NOT win.....:kiss


    Gross amounts. More money is more money, regardless of its percentages. I'm not in competition, I'm just saying that we are talking a heck of a LOT of money!

    Illegals. They aren't entitled to any. YEAH, RIGHT!. Technically, you are correct. But talk to ANY healthcare provider in Florida about that, or Texas, or any 'border' state where illegals tend to cross with apparent ease. The immigrant laws matter little at the hospital. You show me when someone was turned away from a hospital just because they had no green card ? Considder that the hospitals (and for that matter the field units I worked on) service (primarily -except my latest facility, which is private) primarily the agricultural community which uses (yes! you guessed it!) a great number of illegals to pick, sort and at times move its produce. I know it first hand, not by some pencilneck behind a desk telling me the "facts".

    Just because I dont find and quote some stats somewhere regarding illegals does not mean that it doesn't happen. I see it here, I saw it while on the ambulance in the field. I can't speak for states where the population is American, but I can sure speak about my own state.

    Sorry, but I sincerely doubt you hold the final word on 'Human Rights'. Besides, a better quote would be:
    "Statistics prove whatever the statistician wants them to".
    and as R. Limbaugh used to say: "It all depends on how the question was asked.".

    However, I'll doff my cap and go along with the liberal crowd if you can pull it off WITHOUT asking to dip into my pockets for yet MORE money. I have yet to see the government turn ANYTHING into something that was more efficient in time, or cost effectiveness.

    I used to work for the government as well. County level, true, but inefficient beaurocracy nonetheless.
    Last edit by Gromit on Feb 9, '03
  10. by   Gromit
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by fiestynurse
    Also, Gromit, regarding your example of a bad outcome in England's system. No system is perfect. England's system is not a single payer system, such as Canada's. It is more Socialistic in nature and has been poorly funded. Tony Blair has been trying to correct that. All systems are affected by politics and none of them are static.

    As I said, I'll grant the exception, but the waiting lists are real enough


    However, every developed country - with the exception of the United States - has made a genuine effort to assure that every person living in that country has health care coverage. And by and large, they have succeeded.

    Even in third world countries, health care is recognized as a human right. Florence Nightgale was an advocate for Universal Health Care in India in the 1870s.

    Yeah, talk to Cuba, or some of the wondercare available in the sandy dunes of Camel Country


    the United States stands alone in the world in its failure to recognize health care as a right. Instead we consider it an economic commodity. If you can afford it, you can get it. If not, you're out of luck - despite the myth that "anyone can go to the emergency room for care." The so called "safet net."


    Is it a failure? Or is it a failure to capitulate to socialistic ideas? The jury is still out on that. What kind of RIGHT is it that I must pay for it to be GIVEN to someone else?

    As for the MYTH you speak of, look in ANY emergency room. If they have a life-threatening illness, they CANNOT be turned away. Even a facility that cannot handle the type of care, MUST arrange and transport them to a facility that can. If this isn't done, any lawyer would LOVE to jump on the wagon and reap the benefits.

    Call a myth a myth. But thats not one.

    They can't get treated for sniffles. But then sniffles are not the life-threatening emergency that some think it is. If they have chest pains, they will be seen.
  11. by   maureeno
    Whew! this thread goes round like a carousel...now we are back on what a wise poster a while back described as...away from 'is health care a right?' and into 'who has a right to healthcare?'
    meanwhile, since most immigrants come into the US to work, a payroll tax for mandatory health insurance would include them as well.
  12. by   Stargazer
    Now we're reduced to arguing, "America--love it or leave it" and "You can't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up"?

    Oy.
  13. by   fiestynurse
    We must start thinking about ourselves as a single group of 280 million Americans who are all part of the same health care system.
    If even a few million Americans are left hanging in limbo, our nation will not regain its dignity.

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