Is Health Care a Right? - page 18

Just want to see your opinion (friendly discussion, no flaming, please). Is health care a right that should be enjoyed equally here in the U.S.? If so, how would this be financed without breaking... Read More

  1. by   Norbert Holz
    Your retorical question, "is health care a right"? can only be properly addressed by asking the question - Who is granting or denying this right.

    Yes, health care is a "right" if you are a member of the group granted that right by virtue of inclusion in the group being granted that right and only if the entity has the means to convey that right to you or its members.

    No, health care is not a right if you are not included as a member of a group, if health care is not a benefit of inclusion in the group, or if the entity granting the right to health care is incapable of or does not desire to provide the right.

    This is simple, cold logic. When applied to complex problems such as this, often a clear answer emerges.

    Currently in the USA there are a great number of groups granting health care benefits. Federal, state and local governments, insurance companies and other organizations all perform this function.

    As we all know. solely being a citizen or "person" in the USA does not ensure inclusion in a group that grants a right of health care.

    Fairness and equaltiy are eluded too but not to be considered in responding to the question. Logic, law and definitions provide us with the simple truth.

    Please, if you want to pose a question to a group of highly educated individuals posessing extraordinary critical thinking abilities, do so in a more specific and informed manner.
  2. by   Q.
    Kevin,
    Again, awesome post.
  3. by   Nurse Ratched
    Originally posted by Susy K
    Kevin,
    Again, awesome post.
    I think I'm getting Republican in my old age lol. (More like libertarian, actually.)
  4. by   Gromit
    KEVIN! You took the words right out of my mouth!!!

    Excellently put.
  5. by   maureeno
    post #144 01-23-03
    >>One more note, I haven't seen anyone on this thread demand 'free health care for all'. What I've read is about the sad fact that in America 2003 affordable health care is not available to many. <<

    for those nurses interested in a general overview of health care today and the problems which must be answered here is an interesting link:
    www.pbs.org/healthcarecrisis/index.htm
  6. by   Q.
    Originally posted by maureeno
    post #144 01-23-03
    >>One more note, I haven't seen anyone on this thread demand 'free health care for all'.
    You're right they haven't. They've simply demanded that I, and others like me, pay for it.
  7. by   Sally_ICURN
    Originally posted by Susy K
    They've simply demanded that I, and others like me, pay for it.
    Susy, what makes you different from say, um....ME? Please define "others like me." Who exactly are the "others" and who is "they've" who are demanding that you and them pay more? And what makes you think they want you speaking for them? I pay up the ying-yang in taxes each and every single year for the last 24 years of my adult life. I wasn't born into money, I created my own comfort and I'm at times struggling, but a happy, meaningfully employed, educated, ethical, single parent who as head of household is responsible for rearing our precious future and comparatively pays more in taxes than the average married couple. But I'm grateful to be on this beautiful green earth with food on my table and a roof over my head. No personal attack intended but do you realize how self-centered and completely unapproachable you sound? Is it the anonymous nature of the internet that drives your true self to be reavealed or do you truely live your life's opinions as openly as you do here? Healthcare in this country may not be a right but you certainly do have the right to speak and act as you wish within the law. Or are you above the law too?

    Really not meant to flame you and I hope nobody jumps on board to flame...these are just my honest thoughts.

    ~Sally

    p.s. aren't you listening to your all so great "Republican" leader right now? He's saying a whole lot of stuff that YOU would probably completely disagree with.
    Last edit by Sally_ICURN on Jan 28, '03
  8. by   Q.
    Sally,
    The best way to answer your questions is through reposting Kevin's eloquent words:

    This one statement sums up nicely for me the problem with the argument in favor of universal health care, in that there is no real answer to those of us with the opposite viewpoint. Rather than debating logically, we are called cold, heartless and nasty because we would like to see some benefit accrue to ourselves and our families as a result of the hard work and sweat we put in to get ahead. How dare we presume to want to keep something of what we have done, when Chigap, Maureeno, or someone else has better knowledge of how the money we earn should be spent. When all else fails, you WILL stoop to name calling and shaming those who disagree with you. Look no further than the nuts who want me to stop driving my SUV.

    But, these same people have not yet been able to adequately answer our questions about personal responsibility. As I pointed out before, we are rapidly becoming a nation of those with rights without responsibility (those who receive benefits) and those who bear all of the burden of responsibility in society with far fewer concurrent rights (those of us who pay the lion's share of taxes). And when we exercise one of the few rights left to us, that of freedom of speech, to say "this isn't fair" someone like Chigap comes along and calls us "nasty and coldhearted."

    Rest assured, Chigap, I am neither nasty nor coldhearted. I am actually a pretty nice guy. I'll admit to being opinionated on some topics, but my opinions are based on education, experience, and time. I'm also tired of people saying "we need to provide this and that to give everyone opportunity," but when the question of paying for "this and that" comes up, the finger is pointed directly at me. WTF ever happened to taking responsibility for your own life, you own decisions? And why is it my responsibility, because I made good decisions in life and worked my butt off to get where I am, to pay for the bad decisions of others? Why does Susy, by virtue of living in a dual income no kids household, have an even greater responsibility to others?

    Yes, our healthcare system needs work. The first step is to get lawyers out of the system. We must stop forcing doctors and nurses to treat patients in a certain way to prevent being sued. I recently read an article that stated something like 40% of all healthcare dollars are spent on people during the last 10 days of their life. The point is that massive amounts of dollars are being spent on terminal patients at the end of their lives to provide treatment that will at best, extend their lives by a few hours. There are hard decisions that have to be made. But my saying you have dipped into my pocket enough, thank you, does not make me coldhearted or nasty. However, accusing me of such may reveal something about you.

    Kevin McHugh
  9. by   Casey7
    Health care is a right on everyone. We all have the same basic needs and you never know someone's situation why they can't pay for their own healthcare. In the past I have been in the situation of haveing to try for free care. In this country unless you are pregnant or work <7 hours a week, they refuse. So someone actually trying to make it work is turned down. It's a shame.
  10. by   maureeno
    I'd like to get back to health care and away from the oft repeated fantasy I want nurses to pay more taxes [unless you are a nurse whose income is in the top 1%, meaning making more than $1,000,000 a year]
    $$$$Too Little:
    >>All Americans, citizens of an economic superpower though they may be, need to do some serious rethinking about their lifestyles. Among industrialized nations the United States spends the highest percentage of its gross national product on health care, and yet the WHO ranks the US system 37th in an assessment of global health systems . As much as 95 percent of US spending on health care goes toward biomedical research and medical care while as little as 1 to 2 percent is spent on preventive medicine .<<
    www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/9304.html
    $$$$Too Much:
    drug companies are spending more than twice as much on marketing, advertising, and administration than they do on research and development; drug company profits, which are higher than all other industries, exceed research and development expenditures; and drug companies provide lavish compensation packages for their top executives.
    http://www.familiesusa.org/media/pre.../drugceos.html
    Last edit by maureeno on Jan 28, '03
  11. by   Sally_ICURN
    Susy, I still don't think you get what I see so clearly. You're barking up the wrong tree by blaming those who have absolutely no control over the problem. I agree that personal responsibility has a huge role in this but the way it is now, those who need to take responsibility have no support to do so. There's plenty of money out there already. The problem is that it's completely mismanaged. The quote says that I stoop to the level of name calling without any answers. What is your answer besides stop taking my money? All I hear is blame. We can't just talk or wish it away.

    ~Sally

    And I think SUV's should be outlawed!
  12. by   Q.
    I never said that I have the answer. But I certainly know that taking my money, or having me carry the burden of society unfairly is definitely not the answer. Just because I have extra money in my pocket does not mean some third party should decide it belongs in someone else's pocket. I am not barking up the wrong tree. I am responding to Maureeno and Chigap and others here who agree with them, specifically with regard to progressive taxation. Sally, "others like me" are married couples in my tax bracket without children. We can't deduct our kids for tax purposes as we don't have any. We pay a higher percentage of taxes - simply put. There is no reason why that should be.

    I have stated several posts ago that I believe that the answer may lie in changing the mindset of our society - into personal responsibility, accountability, and not expecting entitlements.
    Last edit by Susy K on Jan 28, '03
  13. by   Sally_ICURN
    Originally posted by maureeno

    www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/9304.html
    Susy, did you READ this link? It's pretty much talking about personal responsibility. How is this poster in conflict with what you are talking about?

    How ironic.

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