Is Health Care a Right? - page 12

Just want to see your opinion (friendly discussion, no flaming, please). Is health care a right that should be enjoyed equally here in the U.S.? If so, how would this be financed without breaking... Read More

  1. by   maureeno
    Federal Personal Income Tax Rates for 2002
    There are six tax rates from 10% to 38.6%.
    For single status the figures go:
    under $6,000--------- 10%
    $6T - $27,950-------- 15%
    $27,951-$67,700---- 27%
    $67,701-$141,250-- 30%
    $141,251-$307,050- 35%
    $307,051 or more---- 38.6%

    for married filing jointly:
    up to $12,000---------- 10%
    $12,001-$46,700----- 15%
    $46,701-$112,850---- 27%
    $112,851-$171,950--- 30%
    $171,951-$307,050--- 35%
    $307,051 or more------ 38.6%

    Note that these rates are on taxable income, meaning minus exemptions and deductions [at least $7,700 for a single person with no dependents]. Note also that everyone pays the same rate for the same income, in other words if I make $50,000 I don't pay 27% of the entire amount, but on the taxable amount over $27,950.

    One more note, I haven't seen anyone on this thread demand 'free health care for all'. What I've read is about the sad fact that in America 2003 affordable health care is not available to many.
    Last edit by maureeno on Jan 23, '03
  2. by   Gromit
    Originally posted by fergus51
    WHY DO PEOPLE THINK UNIVERSAL CARE WILL COST MORE?!!

    Americans spend MORE per capita and as a percentage of their GDP than Canadians do ALREADY! The problem isn't with the amount of money we spend, it's with HOW it is allocated. We waste so much more money on administration and get bilked so much more often by companies like Tenet. Reduce some of that and put the money into prevention and I bet we could provide the same health care access to children that we do to prisoners.

    In the end, it doesn't matter whose fault it is that uninsured people get sick and use health care without paying for it, because we all wind up paying for it anyways. Why not look at a common sense way of reducing those costs instead of saying "It's their own fault and I refuse to try to help because they should fix the situation themselves". It's a normal sentiment, and may be completely true, but not likely to happen ever.
    It is NOT that we as U.S. Americans refuse to help, its that we are tired of the never-ending spiral dipping into our pockets. We aren't asked, we are demanded of, and it is never enough.

    Personally, I ask you that if universal or 'government subsidized' healthcare in all these other countries is so great, WHY do they come HERE? Not just their patients, but their healthcare providers?

    I say that I have yet to see anything the government takes over, do better, faster or less expensively than private business.

    If the government takes it, it makes the rules. They will pay only X dollars, and at some point, the doctors, nurses, lab-rats and theorists/researchers are going to say 'why do this? I made a better living doing something outside of healthcare!', and then we become just another country with a long waiting list of patients, and few providers.

    No thanks. Ours needs fixing, but not like that!
  3. by   Gromit
    Originally posted by chigap
    How about if we just line up all the poor people and shoot them. Or better yet, let's just deprive them of everything at the base of Maslow's hierarchy and watch them suffer. That's very Christ-like.
    No, I advocate taking those who worked full-time to pay their home payments, school payments (while going to school, no less), driving 15yr old vehicles that they have to work on themselves (because a mechanic costs far more than getting the part and getting greasy) and when they FINALLY get done, yet have a mountain of debt from school and miscelany, take THEM and shoot them (or better yet, tax them into submission for trying to succeed!).

    I'm one of those critters. Losing my job a year ago almost cost me everything. I lived w/o insurance, wondered where my next meal was coming from (I lived off of tunafish sandwiches for a long time, because they were very inexpensive to make). The bike in my picture is and oldie, but a goodie, and the one luxury I refused to give up. I had only broadcast TV. I know, this is of no interest to you. But I'm only bitter because now I'm supposed to feel guilty that I dont fork over whatever I make to help someone else.

    By the way, I notice some of you downing Bush on the tax cut. SHOW YOUR DISLIKE FOR IT! GIVE YOURS BACK!

    Don't bother to mentionthat Clinton, at the very beginning of HIS 1st term, gave us the highest tax increase in our history!

    Was it enough?

    Not by a longshot.

    We don't live in a communist country! Not yet, anyway. The name of the game is to have a chance to live the good life, if you want.
  4. by   fergus51
    Originally posted by Gromit
    It is NOT that we as U.S. Americans refuse to help, its that we are tired of the never-ending spiral dipping into our pockets. We aren't asked, we are demanded of, and it is never enough.

    Personally, I ask you that if universal or 'government subsidized' healthcare in all these other countries is so great, WHY do they come HERE? Not just their patients, but their healthcare providers?

    I say that I have yet to see anything the government takes over, do better, faster or less expensively than private business.

    If the government takes it, it makes the rules. They will pay only X dollars, and at some point, the doctors, nurses, lab-rats and theorists/researchers are going to say 'why do this? I made a better living doing something outside of healthcare!', and then we become just another country with a long waiting list of patients, and few providers.

    No thanks. Ours needs fixing, but not like that!
    OK, I don't know how I can say this any clearer... I AM NOT IN FAVOUR OF INCREASING YOUR TAXES. I am not demanding anything more from you. I DO think Americans pay enough taxes. I think we spend enough on health care. The problem is THAT MONEY IS MISMANAGED!!! I don't believe we can't afford to insure every child in the country right now (without taking any more of your money). I hope that is clearer.

    Some patients go to the US to get elective surgery faster. That said, studies have shown over and over again that our health outcomes are as good or better than in America despite the wait times we have for certain surgeries. Americans also come here for things like prescription drugs (I believe there is a law they're thinking of making to stop this) and certain elective surgeries (like eye surgeries). As for health care professionals, I have worked both places (I am an American too) and the reasons are many. I went because I didn't have a job in Canada. Some go to areas where the pay is better than in Canada, like California. But for every California type paycheck, there are the Mississippi type paychecks and you won't find many Canadian nurses there. I also know several doctors who went to the US then came back here because of frustration with billing systems (insurance companies telling them what they could order) and the price of malpractice insurance (for OBs).

    I also maintain that universal does not have to mean done by the government! It would be regulated by the government like hospitals already are. I am not advocating a change to the USSR! I am not a pinko and my momma doesn't wear red army boots.

    As far as salaries, there are nurses in the US already leaving in droves, despite private health care salaries (cause they aren't that great in a lot of places). It really is about working conditions in the end, and the private for profit companies aren't providing great conditions now. It hasn't been my experience that more Canadian nurses leave the profession than American nurses, or that our conditions or wages are worse in many cases. Research is still done and med schools and nursing schools still get many more applicants than they can take.

    I would strongly suggest you read the book I mentioned earlier if you want to see a non-biased, research based analysis of the 2 systems' flaws and benefits. Some of your fears are just not supported by the research.
    Last edit by fergus51 on Jan 24, '03
  5. by   Q.
    Originally posted by maureeno
    Federal Personal Income Tax Rates for 2002
    There are six tax rates from 10% to 38.6%.
    for married filing jointly:
    up to $12,000---------- 10%
    $12,001-$46,700----- 15%
    $46,701-$112,850---- 27%
    $112,851-$171,950--- 30%
    $171,951-$307,050--- 35%
    $307,051 or more------ 38.6%

    Yes. Now someone please explain to me why I should pay a higher percentage of taxes than someone else.
    Last edit by Susy K on Jan 24, '03
  6. by   Furball
    I always kinds like Forbes idea of getting rid of income tax all together....I THINK it was Forbes....could be wrong. Whoever wanted to put a federal tax on purchases so the more you buy the more you pay based on how much the item costs.
    That seemed fair.


    I'm in a higher tax bracket this year (both hubby and I got a raise!) but I also was able to afford a house, finally, so I'll have more deductions. It'll be interesting to see the difference in actual payment between 15% bracket and 27%.

    Yet another VERY interesting thread! I love this place!
  7. by   Flo1216
    Granted there will always be Americans who are irresponsible and will " mooch" off of the system. But there are many more who don't . There are millions of honest, hardworking good people who cannot afford health insurance. Or else there are people who become ill and their premium becomes too high and they cannot afford it. Hard times can strike ANY of us, when we least expect it . My boyfriend had started a new job in NYC in the building next to the world trade center. He had been there almost 3 months, almost enough time for his health insurance benefits to kick in. 9-11 happened and his building was demolished and he lost his job and was lucky he didn't lose his life. He hadn't been there long enough to have benefits. He didn't take money post 9-11 because he thought that families with children needed it more. Shortly after, he became ill and required medical assistance. He had no insurance and couldn't afford to pay. I guess he should have just suffered and died, according to some of you. My mother could never afford health insurance for her or us kids when we were growing up, even though she worked two jobs. And she didn't drive a $20,000 car either. She had a piece of crap car that never started. It amazes me how quickly people pass judgement on those less fortunate than them. It also saddens me how we can be so cruel and coldhearted when it comes to money vs. human suffering. I would be willing to pay more taxes so that everyone is covered. No matter what their character flaws, mistakes they have made or their ability to pay, every uninsured person "feeding off the system" is someone's mother, sister, wife, girlfriend. The healtcare system needs an overhaul, but I don't think that withholding treatment from people who cannot afford to pay just to satisfy some snobby elitist mentality is the answer.
  8. by   maureeno
    Ordinary working people depend on their earnings to pay the rent and put bread on the table. Wealthier people have discretionary income left over after they pay for life's necessities.
  9. by   Flo1216
    P.S. My mom used her income to pay the rent, car insurance and buy us food. We didn't have money for extras. I guess instead of providing her children with food, clothing and shelter, she should have gotten her priorities straight and purchased health insurance instead
    Last edit by Flo1216 on Jan 24, '03
  10. by   JMP
    Long interesting thread.
    I almost left for the US.... was prepared, husband was prepared, went down twice to look around. Once for the interview and once for us to really look at the place in the cold light of day.

    I really wanted to go, the state was a beautiful state, the weather was great and the hopsital seemed nice. BUT..... I just could not get my head around the health care situation in the US.... compared to Canada.

    It is hard to imagine anything different here, just like it must be hard to imagine anything different there......... but universal health care is a jewel in our society. Health care is a basic RIGHT, in my view, to ALL CITIZENS...... young, old, poor or wealthy.

    Some may wonder, why I would have even considered leaving...... for adventure and change...... and sometimes I wish I had gone, but I just could not bring myself to embrance the health care system there.
  11. by   Q.
    Originally posted by maureeno
    Ordinary working people depend on their earnings to pay the rent and put bread on the table. Wealthier people have discretionary income left over after they pay for life's necessities.
    But this is still accomplished by having a flat percentage across the board. If someone making $25K annual is taxed at 20%, and someone making $115K annual is taxed at 20%, the latter person is still paying "more" and carrying the tax burden more than his less wealthier counterpart.

    I still maintain this progressive taxation is unfair and unjust.
  12. by   donmurray
    I don't get the unfairness in this. Maths may not be my strong point, but you seem to be suggesting in your example that the poor person pay 23k tax as does the richer one. To have the 25k person left with only 2k against the better-off person who still has 92k, sounds like Reaganomics. (or Bushonomics!)
    Flat rate taxation ensures that everyone pays the same, proportional to their income.
  13. by   Q.
    Originally posted by donmurray
    Flat rate taxation ensures that everyone pays the same, proportional to their income.
    Don, your post seems to suggest that you didn't read mine carefully.

    This is what I am suggesting: flat rate taxation; everyone pays the same percentage regardless of income. To have me pay a higher percentage is unfair, simply because I make more. Why not have everyone pay 20% of their income? Why does my neighbor, who drives an expensive vehicle, pay 15% and I pay 32%?? THAT is unfair.
    Last edit by Susy K on Jan 24, '03

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