If we make BSN the entry level degree, we should be paid more

Nurses Activism

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First, I do not want to challenge nurses with several years of clinical experience that are ADN or diploma trained nurses or those nurses that graduated recently with a ADN, and I do not want to challenge anyone by saying that there is a difference between the ADN versus the BSN prepared nurse.

There is a push for all nurses to be BSN prepared or for ADNs to achieve their BSN; however, there is no increase in wages for the majority of those with their BSN or those going from an ADN to a BSN. I find that as a workforce, we do not understand our worth. Why do we need the BSN as it costs more and it has no pay benefits. Students that have an ADN from a community college have less student loans, and they make the same a student that has a BSN; however, the BSN student has increased student debt with no increased monetary income to show for their degree.

I challenge the nursing workforce to acknowledge our value as a profession, and demand an increase in pay if we are to have a BSN. The current yearly income of a nurse is based on the costs of an ADN level of education; however, it does not match the cost of a BSN cost of education. If I am required or it is preferred that I have my BSN, I need to be paid accordingly. I do not practice nursing strictly for the income, but I do appreciate putting a dollar value on the work I do.

Thoughts?

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
I would imagine that experience would matter more. I am a C.N.A getting my BSRN but I tell you I am a little confused because I transferred from a community college to a state college so all of my credits are in an entirely different course of study. So although I will graduate with my Bachelors they other area's you learn in well really wouldn't apply. I mean it may give you more managerial capabilities but I don't think it should really matter. Personal pref.

Experience does matter. Education does matter. They are not mutually exclusive.

As for "what applies", wait until you get some experience before judging that.

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
I make more now salaried than I did as a clock punching BSN, even with overtime. I also come and go within reason, as long as I'm putting in my 8 hours a day and getting the job done. I can duck out for a doctor or dental appt. or take a little longer lunch, run errands or take care of personal business. Sometimes I come & leave early, sometimes come & leave late. It's nice to have that kind of freedom and not be chained to a Kronos or time clock.

Then you are not in a hospital setting ...them what you say makes sense. I agree outside of the hospital bedside setting I can see that the BSN gets a higher rate of pay. As a seasoned RN in acute care I wouldn't consider a salaried position without a near six figure tag (for my area) or an good package that makes up for it in comp time or bonus....there is far too much free time that is given in OT.

Corporate/business is different from hospital management

Then you are not in a hospital setting ...them what you say makes sense. I agree outside of the hospital bedside setting I can see that the BSN gets a higher rate of pay. As a seasoned RN in acute care I wouldn't consider a salaried position without a near six figure tag (for my area) or an good package that makes up for it in comp time or bonus....there is far too much free time that is given in OT.

Corporate/business is different from hospital management

We have parent/staff educators and case managers who are salaried and work in the hospital. We also have nurses associated with the informatics department to help resolve issues and do training who are on salary. The only draw back is they might have to do some training for the night shifts.

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
We have parent/staff educators and case managers who are salaried and work in the hospital. We also have nurses associated with the informatics department to help resolve issues and do training who are on salary. The only draw back is they might have to do some training for the night shifts.
I've been salaried in the hospital....manager of an ED and ICU, director of critical care services and educator... and I gave, and was required to give, far more than my pay compensated for....I didn't mind over all as I used to be able to come and go, made my own hours, work nights to be with the staff on off shifts.... comp time was generous. It is not that way anymore.

I am one of those ADN/ASN grads that feels the BSN on line after many years as a successful RN didn't add much to my practice nor my competence in doing a great job.

I do feel as nursing goes forward that it needs to keep up but the process isn't an easy one and it is going to be difficult as how do you put all these schools/community colleges out of business. It's all about the money that is why I don't see it happening anytime soon. These schools will fight to keep open and an economic crisis if they close. I think by the time it gets even close this boon of nursing graduates will be over and a need will arise again for bedside nurses. These boon's are cyclical...but I believe the days of old and you leave school writing your own ticket are over.

It will behoove those entering now to get the BSN for that is the future for advancement in a job you will be doing a lifetime. But I am skeptical that a new grad should be paid more just because they have a BSN a new grad, is a new grad, is a new grad.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Your posts are amusing but difficult to follow. You flip flop on your history and contradict yourself in your own personal timeline.

Actually I don't. It's more of a reading comprehension problem on your end.

Your school allowed you to be an RN instructor with no BSN?

Hmm, no idea what you are talking about here. I did mention the fact that I serve as an instructor in my hospital's critical care nurse residency. Never mentioned being an RN instructor.

You are also an RRT? Is that Respiratory Therapist? Are you a degreed RT or a grandfathered Tech? Are you also against RTs advancing their education? Do you work as an RT or RN?

As I already explained RRT in this context means Rapid Response Team RN.

$

100,000 is nothing to brag about today especially if it takes two jobs to make that much.

I make well over $100k/year in my full time job alone, not counting OT, as I mentioned already. And I do it in a low cost of living area in the upper Midwest.

To those of us who have work in Massachusetts, New York and California, $100,000 is poverty or minimum wage to a San Francisco RN.

Ya, I know. I have worked in California. But I don't live in those high cost of living areas.

You just can not seem to accept change.

More attempts at personal insults.

You might have been able to get a job doing ICU and transport with just an ADN at one time or maybe in your are

a but standards change.

All of the ADN students I have precepted in the last couple years have managed to get acute care jobs within a few months of graduation. Several in specialty units like PICU and SICU.

Yes a specialty team can say BSN required and not just preferred. If you don't have the degree, you don't make the team and enjoy all the things in a broader scope of practice. I don't need to post studies for that. You can just go to the flight and NICU section and read the posts there.

I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that RNs with a BSN who work in flight or NICU enjoy a broader scope of practice than ADNs doing the same job? If so that would be a very unique situation.

There is also no nursing shortage.

Duh!

Calling Magnet status crap and criticizing anyone with a BSN as all being the same is rather silly on your part.

Magnet is a passing fad. Please name one single time when I have criticized any of my fellow BSN nurses for having a BSN or retract your inaccurate claim.

You must live in a very isolated area where you can brag about your money and autonomy.

(sigh) I am responded to wildly inaccurate claims you have made.

I guess no one has told you that Rapid Response teams are everywhere in the US now and the RNs do have a lot of autonomy on those teams.

I guess nobody has told you that resorting to personal attacks, rather than reasoned arguments is a desperate debate tactic of those who have no case to make.

But, you are a very negative person when it comes to advancing nursing as a profession.

I am very much in favor of advancing nursing as a profession and am working towards that. We haven't even discussed advancing nursing so you have nothing to base your untruthful statements on. Maybe someday you will learn that not everyone who disagrees with you is bitter and an idiot.

I would genuinely hate to work with someone as disgruntled with their work environment

Wow, name calling and lying? What was your point again?

and who thinks so little of BSN degreed RNs as you and Muno.

If you actually think that please do yourself a favor and take a reading comprehension class at your local college. It might help you to better understand the written word. All this wishful reading you do can't be healthy for you and your patients.

For the record neither MunoRN, nor I have even expressed an opinion about our fellow BSN prepared nurses in this discussion. Nobody has asked me.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.

I am one of those ADN/ASN grads that feels the BSN on line after many years as a successful RN didn't add much to my practice nor my competence in doing a great job.

I do feel as nursing goes forward that it needs to keep up but the process isn't an easy one and it is going to be difficult as how do you put all these schools/community colleges out of business. It's all about the money that is why I don't see it happening anytime soon. These schools will fight to keep open and an economic crisis if they close. I think by the time it gets even close this boon of nursing graduates will be over and a need will arise again for bedside nurses. These boon's are cyclical...but I believe the days of old and you leave school writing your own ticket are over.

It will behoove those entering now to get the BSN for that is the future for advancement in a job you will be doing a lifetime. But I am skeptical that a new grad should be paid more just because they have a BSN a new grad, is a new grad, is a new grad.

Well said. I agree 100%.

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
Actually I don't. It's more of a reading comprehension problem on your end.

Wow, name calling and lying?

A bit of the pot calling the kettle black there? You rant against traumasurfer for making personal insults shortly after you did the same.

Again, you continue to use yourself as an example. Where is the data/evidence?

Well said. I agree 100%.

Did you miss the last sentence where ESME12 said the BSN is worth getting for new grads?

I have posted links to support my statements. You have bragged about yourself while trying to discredit the BSN and Magnet status. I would really like to know where you work or at least some geographic area to give us a clue as to your overall negative attitude about the progression of nursing.

What exactly do you believe to be untruthful? Magnet status? Over 50% of RNs now hold BSNs? EBM is now in the workplace? Medicine is changing with more medicines, treatments and technology? Other professions have raised their bar to entry? Change is coming? Which of those do you believe to be untruthful?

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

EBM has been in the workplace...FOREVER...it just now has a name. Everything we did that was "tried and true" and "usual and customary"....was EBM. Much of the medical advancements in the past 20 years or so were practiced/trialed/performed by diploma and ADN/ASN nurses.

I remember the first time I heard the term Torsades de pointes. It was this really nice lady, I still remember her name, she had a ventricular aneurysm (a diagnosis seldom seen these days due to interventional cardiology) who went into V.Tach on the monitor but when we went into her room she felt her heart MIGHT be beating a little fast but felt fine. She told me "I feel fine but you look a little plae honey" PALE??? I was craping in my pants! We didn't really cardiovert then. When I called the cardiologist, new on staff...young and very brilliant...he said "Oh she has torsades de pointes"...I said "yeah whatever but this lady is in VTach with a pressure and alert....you need to come in NOW!" It was 3AM.

Our brilliant cardiologist flew in a new drug from Chicago...Bretyllium (now no longer made) ...for this lady which we gave...it helped and transferred her to a hospital that did open heart. I remember the first time I hung IV nitro/Tridil, streptokinase, TPA, my first Heartmate/portable vad, my first cath lab...my PTCA...my first stint (which was the day my house burned) many other firsts... over this explosion of technology and advances...all before I had my BSN. I never felt under prepared. I never felt I was less of a nurse. I never felt I couldn't adequately care for these patients.

But times are changing. Gone, for the most part, are the University associate programs. My program is now the ABSN at my college. Arisen.... the proliferation of community colleges and technical institutes (and some private colleges) with inferior programs which I think necessitates the BSN entry. I blame the nursing community/nursing boards/academia for this divide and not forcing a common criteria essential to a nurses education.

But to be paid more as a new grad just because you have a BSN...the answer is no. My daughter will be getting her BSN because this is the trend and the writing is on the wall.

EBM has been in the workplace...FOREVER...it just now has a name. Everything we did that was "tried and true" and "usual and customary"....was EBM. Much of the medical advancements in the past 20 years or so were practiced/trialed/performed by diploma and ADN/ASN nurses.

Being trialed as tasks and reading to learn more about the advances might also be two very different things. How many times have you said or heard said, "can't tell you why", "don't know how it works but it works", "this is how we always do it", "because the protocol or policy says so" or "the doctor ordered it"? How many articles have been placed on a bulletin board or report table by educators or a physician and sit there untouched? These are things I have seen in the past. Now, with BSN RN unit, we actively seek out new journal articles to read and are read. We actively participate in policy implementation of new equipment. We now have more RNs participating in the research and initiating projects themselves. The attitude of just doing something because you were told to or that is the way it always has been done needs to change. BSN grads are now coming into the workforce seeking answers by asking questions which sometimes irritates the older ADNs who may perceive this as being undereducated rather than taking an initiative in their own learning process. I remember when the diploma nursing students living in residence "doing as told". They were very valuable at the bedside but also had limitations and sometimes seen as very task focused to the point of not seeing the broader picture.

I have great respect for those who started as diploma nurses and then went on for MSNs and PhDs. to educate. They were able to blend both worlds.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Did you miss the last sentence where ESME12 said the BSN is worth getting for new grads?

Of course not. She is right and I agree with her. Should be no surpise at all. It's pretty obvious what is going on in nursing currently.

I have posted links to support my statements

No you have not. You posted links showing the well known, common knowlage fact that some other countries, and more all the time are requiring their nurses to have a BSN. You posted nothing to support your statment that US nurses are "lagging behind". Still waiting.

You have bragged about yourself

Uh, no. I refuted false statements you made about me. If you don't wish to hear about my career then don't say things like this:

I guess you believe the degree you have has failed you

while trying to discredit the BSN

I have not discredited the BSN. More wishful reading on your part.

and Magnet status.

Sorry to be the messenger on that one. I thought everyone knew that Magnet was fading.

I

would really like to know where you work or at least some geographic area

Sure I can tell you again. I work and live in the upper midwest currently.

What exactly do you believe to be untruthful?

You want a list? OK Here are some of the untruthful things you ave said so far:

to give us a clue as to your overall negative attitude about the progression of nursing.

I have a very positive attitude about the preogession of nursing. We haven't even discussed the progression of nursing and I have not offered my views on it so far so you have no basis to make this false statement.

Interesting that a Magnet hospital is not promoting higher education.

You made this false statement in reguards to the hospital where I work part time. That hospital very much promotes higher education among it's nurses and provides a very generous education benifit to it's nurses as well as a clinical ladder that allows nurses to improve their pay and working conditions as they move up.

Don't fear the future

Disagreeing with you about a BSN as entry does not indicate fear of the future.

You may laugh at the advancement of education for nurses

You made this false comment after I said "LOL" to one of your comments. In no way was I referencing advancement of education.

From your many posts I get it that you are not pro BSN and probably because you don't want to go back to school.

I am pro BSN. I am also pro making the BSN a much more meaningful education than it (an other nursing education) is at the moment. I am opposed to making the BSN required fro entry to RN practice. Falsely accuse me of not wanting to go back to school after I earned my RN to BSN.

You can not keep living in the past assuming your ADN will always be adequate.

Once again disagreeing with you about BSN as entry is not evidence that I live in the past, or what assumtions I have made.

I also take it to be true you have not worked in NZ to know what it is like and if your ADN is really equivalent.

This is false and I have mentioned that I have worked as an RN in New Zealand at least twice.

Where have you been for the past 20 years? How can you not say medicine is not advancing?

This is just a lie you told. No place did I ever say medicine is not advancing. I know better.

You have failed to read or make yourself familiar in any way with what is happening in nursing.

Once again, disagreeing with you about an issue is not evidence that I am not familiar with what is happening in nursing. I find this comment ironic given I had to explain to you that a BSN is not required for NPs.

You have a strong opinion against the BSN even though you say you hold the degree.

False, I haven't expressed my opinion on the BSN itself. You have nothing to base this false comment on.

You are probably the most negative person whose posts I have read to hold back the BSNs from increasing in pay and scope at some hospitals.

That you find me negative is of course subjective. However given that you apperently don't even read my comments I don't know what you base this opnion on. Do you really think that my opinion that a BSN should not be required for entry to practice is holding back pay and scope of practice? Apperently I haven't given myself enough credit.

As long as you and others like you keep bashing the BSN degree

Baseless comment.

If the BSN degree has failed you, I believe you have no one to blame but yourself and your attitude.

I responded to this silly and baseless comment by telling you about my career, then you accused me of bragging when I respond to your false comment.

Your school allowed you to be an RN instructor with no BSN?

You asked this question out of the blue when I had made no mention of ever being an RN instructor. I am not an instructor in any school and never made that claim.

$100,000 is nothing to brag about today especially if it takes two jobs to make that much.

Not bragging, responsing to your accusations. Plus I CLEARLY stated that was WITHOUT OT.

You just can not seem to accept change.

Again, disagreeing with you about a particular topic is no evidence of willingness to adapt to change.

Yes a specialty team can say BSN required and not just preferred. If you don't have the degree, you don't make the team and enjoy all the things in a broader scope of practice. I don't need to post studies for that.

Here you SEEM to be saying that nurses with BSNs working in specialtys enjoy a broader scope of practice. Hard to tell what it is you are saying.

There is also no nursing shortage.

You get no credit for pointing out the blatently obvious.

criticizing anyone with a BSN as all being the same is rather silly on your part.

Another lie from you. I never criticized anyone for having a BSN.

I guess no one has told you that Rapid Response teams are everywhere in the US now and the RNs do have a lot of autonomy on those teams.

No credit for pointing common knowlage.

you are a very negative person when it comes to advancing nursing as a profession.

You say this despite the fact that we have not yet engaged in any discussions on advancing nursing as a profession. You have no idea what my views on the subject are.

I would genuinely hate to work with someone as disgruntled with their work environment

Blatent lie. I love my work envirment and have written about it many times here on AN.

and who thinks so little of BSN degreed RNs

I have not offered my opinion on my fellow BSN degreed RNs. You have nothing to support this statement.

Ov

er 50% of RNs now hold BSNs? EBM is now in the workplace? Medicine is changing with more medicines, treatments and technology? Other professions have raised their bar to entry? Change is coming?

No credit for condecendingly stateing the obvious and common knowlage.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Being trialed as tasks and reading to learn more about the advances might also be two very different things. How many times have you said or heard said, "can't tell you why", "don't know how it works but it works", "this is how we always do it", "because the protocol or policy says so" or "the doctor ordered it"? How many articles have been placed on a bulletin board or report table by educators or a physician and sit there untouched?.

Wow! Where have you been working!? No wonder you hold the opinions you do, coming from where you do.

Foreign to me.

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