If we had a conservative nurses forum - page 6

Would anyone post in it? :clown: I looked forward to being a nurse for so long....my second thoughts aren't because of nurses eating their own (I have never seen that!) or hours or mean docs... Read More

  1. Visit  d'cm profile page
    0
    [QUOTE=dp1200;4744369]This is another unfortunate misunderstanding of our Constitution. You are making the common mistake of interpreting A1-S8 as a completely unbounded, undefined, blank check for Congress to do anything it wants under the guise of "general welfare", which can be construed to mean anything.

    This is not the purpose of this clause. This is an introduction to the 17 enumerated powers that follow immediately thereafter, nothing more. Why bother enumerating specific powers if "general welfare" is a blank check?[/QUOTE

    Minds much greater than mine have made the same mistake. The debate on the meaning of A1-S8 goes back to the founders. Your interpretation reflects Thomas Jefferson's but time has shown Hamilton's eventually won out as reflected in the 1936 decision in US vs Butler where the supreme court concluded: "The clause confers a power separate and distinct from those later enumerated [,] is not restricted in meaning by the grant of them, and Congress consequently has a substantive power to tax and to appropriate, limited only by the requirement that it shall be exercised to provide for the general welfare of the United States. ... It results that the power of Congress to authorize expenditure of public moneys for public purposes is not limited by the direct grants of legislative power found in the Constitution." This case involved the payment to farmers not to grow crops to stabilize prices. A decision that I would think very relevant to the constitutional challenge to the mandatory insurance clause of the ACA.

    So, basically yes it is a blank check for Congress to spend our money any way it wants and efforts to reinterpret the constitution are unproductive. As citizens the best we can do is to elect and influence those elected to tax and spend wisely. I think as a country we have done a pretty poor job of it. This is where I part company with the Republicans who for the past 30 years have consistently rung up huge deficits funding military projects that have not benefited anyone except the military-industrial complex. All the while espousing their conservativeness. President Obama and the Democrats are trying to get a hold on the reins of our run away entitlement programs but the Republicans are fighting them tooth and nail. The ACA could have been funded with letting the tax breaks for the filthy rich expire. The Republicans would have none of it, yet came in raging about deficits. The ACA benefits all nurses, there is funding for scholarships, research and jobs. The true fiscal conservatives are Democrats. The Congressional Republicans espouse social conservativeness because it gets them votes, no other reason. Read: J. David Kuo "Tempting Faith: An Inside Story of Political Seduction",
  2. Visit  dp1200 profile page
    6
    You are right - my Constitutional philosophy IS aligned with Jefferson and Madison, and Hamilton's opposing view did eventually win out, as shown by our long slow side into socialism. Let's keep in mind who Hamilton was: favorable to the monarchy and Britain, wanted a "President for life" with absolute veto power (King?),and state governors appointed by the Federal government (Lords?), and partial to a loose interpretation of the Constitution granting the federal government implied powers to do just about anything. Hamilton was supportive of a wealthy aristocracy controlling the reigns of federal power - if you claim to be against corporate cronyism in government, well, Hamilton's view is where it came from.

    Your invocation of Hamilton only bolsters my point about a rabid central government controlled by moneyed interests.

    Contemporary Democrats and Republicans alike are guilty of this - I oppose both.

    It's a shame that authoritarian socialism has not, does not, and can not ever work as an economic system for more than a few generations, and that people fail to learn this lesson from history. We're witnessing the very collapse of this system all over the world right now.
    TLCfromSC, GM2RN, Colaxais, and 3 others like this.
  3. Visit  d'cm profile page
    1
    dp, I may be wrong but I think you are going to have a rough time in nursing. Acceptance and even embracement of the status quo is highly prized in our profession. I am not saying that it a good thing, believe me. Good luck my friend.
    dp1200 likes this.
  4. Visit  VickyRN profile page
    7
    Quote from dp1200
    You are right - my Constitutional philosophy IS aligned with Jefferson and Madison, and Hamilton's opposing view did eventually win out, as shown by our long slow side into socialism. Let's keep in mind who Hamilton was: favorable to the monarchy and Britain, wanted a "President for life" with absolute veto power (King?),and state governors appointed by the Federal government (Lords?), and partial to a loose interpretation of the Constitution granting the federal government implied powers to do just about anything. Hamilton was supportive of a wealthy aristocracy controlling the reigns of federal power - if you claim to be against corporate cronyism in government, well, Hamilton's view is where it came from.

    Your invocation of Hamilton only bolsters my point about a rabid central government controlled by moneyed interests.

    Contemporary Democrats and Republicans alike are guilty of this - I oppose both.

    It's a shame that authoritarian socialism has not, does not, and can not ever work as an economic system for more than a few generations, and that people fail to learn this lesson from history. We're witnessing the very collapse of this system all over the world right now.
    Absolutely brilliant post, dp 1200. I wholeheartedly enthusiastically agree and couldn't have said it better. Thank you!
    jeannepaul, GM2RN, Bortaz, RN, and 4 others like this.
  5. Visit  dp1200 profile page
    4
    Quote from d'cm
    dp, I may be wrong but I think you are going to have a rough time in nursing. Acceptance and even embracement of the status quo is highly prized in our profession. I am not saying that it a good thing, believe me. Good luck my friend.
    Thank you, d'cm. I do already work in health care - I am an EMT in a large city. I love the work, I love helping people, love working with other professionals in the field (including RNs!), and I do well with both patients and other healthcare workers.

    Believe me, I am well aware of the "status quo" and know how to function within it, but that does not mean that I will abandon my ability for critical thought in mindless acceptance of the status quo when there is no logic behind it. I do not seek out argument with others, but I will also not shy away from a civil debate over topics of great importance.

    Thanks for the lively conversation!
    GM2RN, Spidey's mom, GHGoonette, and 1 other like this.
  6. Visit  ctnjason profile page
    2
    anything you call or label me is ok....... its been done before BUT heres my 2 cents.

    There is no such thing as left wing, right wing, republicrat, tea partier, liberal, whatever. They are all just names.

    Our country is ran by a select few powerful people who use, manipulate, control, and decide ways to line their pockets. Obama, Mccain, Palin, Mickey-freakin-mouse all have 1 thing in common...... THEY DO NOT WORK FOR YOU.

    They only work for a select group or rich corporations that pay for their campaigns. Google it. I dare you. Google the top 20 campaign contributors of Mccain and Obama in 2008. They are almost IDENTICAL. Does that tell you anything? Hope and Change was supposed to get us out of war.... we are still there. The economy is still in the crapper. Your tax dollars went to bail-out Obama's / Mccain's friends (yes the same thing wouldve happened with Mccain in office) , and yet we all still blindly go about our business as usual. You cant name your state reps but you know who brad pitt and angelina adopted last week.
    smartnurse1982 and Chin up like this.
  7. Visit  sharpeimom profile page
    6
    Quote from spidey's mom
    oh come on, you're friends with little old lovable me


    steph
    yep, i am! i have absolutely no idea how i ended up being as liberal as i am when i emerged from a family and extended family that wasn't conservative, but conservative. i think the stork dropped me on the wrong doorstep by mistake. as you might imagine, some family events become very lively when my other couple of (shh!) equally liberal cousins and our spouses, are there too.

    the good news is that there haven't been any murders yet.
  8. Visit  Spidey's mom profile page
    4
    Quote from sharpeimom
    yep, i am! i have absolutely no idea how i ended up being as liberal as i am when i emerged from a family and extended family that wasn't conservative, but conservative. i think the stork dropped me on the wrong doorstep by mistake. as you might imagine, some family events become very lively when my other couple of (shh!) equally liberal cousins and our spouses, are there too.

    the good news is that there haven't been any murders yet.
    your family experience mirrors mine . . . .just switch the liberal/conservative labels.

    i have always felt that someone dropped me into the wrong family but it is more than politics, although that is huge.

    and yes, there are some equally conservative cousins and spouses and fortunately for me, one brother.

    i saw my dad yesterday - he's got chronic health problems and a new one has cropped up (20 lb weight loss, bowel trouble). he is an avowed atheist, a liberal union guy who does not like what obama is doing.

    i put him on our prayer list in church this morning. he'd roll his eyes at me if he knew.

    steph
    tewdles, GHGoonette, VivaLasViejas, and 1 other like this.
  9. Visit  sharpeimom profile page
    0
    Quote from spidey's mom

    i saw my dad yesterday -

    i put him on our prayer list in church this morning. he'd roll his eyes at me if he knew.

    steph
    he's on our prayer list now as well. i just sent an im to the friend who coordinates the list.
    it's so difficult when our parents age enough and grow infirm enough that roles reverse. i've
    been there. it really is so hard not to usurp too much control while doing what must be done.

    my cousin is going through what you are with her mom (my mom's twin sister) now and let's just say
    she isn't giving up easily... is that diplomatic enough?

    hugs,
    kathy
  10. Visit  Spidey's mom profile page
    0
    Thanks Kathy - I palpated his abd yesterday. Has me worried. Constipated for a month off and on - he basically lives on laxatives and is afraid to leave the house for fear of an accident. He refused to go to dinner with us last night.

    And he made his usual "I'm an atheist" comment, which we all ignored.

    steph
  11. Visit  Saysfaa profile page
    1
    "it likely only seems like there are more "liberal" nurses because they may be more vocal."

    and

    "from what i have observed, there is actually a substantial but quiet proportion of conservative-minded people in healthcare who simply do not talk about it in a work, or even mixed social, setting."

    i agree.

    i think one of the reasons in both cases is that the liberals dominate education and the media which results in slogans and catch phrases from the liberals vs definitions and extensive explanations from the conservatives. even when conservative get a liberal who will stick through it and try to understand, it is a lot of time and work.

    i thought i was far in the minority until i started (gently) talking about it more. it has turned out that a lot of the people around me are conservatives also - they just weren't talking about it because they assumed they were far in the minority.

    i'm not particularily interested in a conservative forum in allnurses, though.
    Last edit by Saysfaa on Feb 2, '11
    DosmoRN likes this.
  12. Visit  d'cm profile page
    5
    "... one of the reasons in both cases is that the liberals dominate education and the media which results in slogans and catch phrases from the liberals vs definitions and extensive explainations from the conservatives."

    LOL. You got to be kidding. btw, it's explanations, not explainations.
  13. Visit  Saysfaa profile page
    4
    Thanks for noting the spelling. I originally phrased the idea differently, although I do tend to make spelling mistakes anyways.

    Grammar and punctuations mistakes too, sometimes. Especially when I think I'm just talking informally.

    Oh, and no, not really kidding. Perhaps I've been unlucky in which liberals I've talked to.

    And, yes, I know it is not proper English to end a sentence with a preposition. I'm from the midwest, I consider it dialect rather than improper.
    Last edit by Saysfaa on Feb 2, '11
    FF-PHRN, tewdles, ®Nurse, and 1 other like this.


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