Healthcare is NOT a basic human right.

[Asystole RN]

If one were to read the Constitution one would realize that the Constitution does not grant anyone freedoms, liberties, or rights. The Constitution only protects freedoms, liberties, and rights from transgressions on part of the government. A right is something that is inherent to the individual, comes from that individual, and is maintained by the individual. You are born with such rights like the right to speak freely, the only thing that can be done to that right is to have it infringed. No one can grant a right to another, only limit or impede the exercise of that right.

Healthcare is a human invention that does not exist in the natural environment. Only through the work of others and through the taking of resources from one party and giving to another does healthcare exist. You cannot force someone to give effort and resources to another and call that a right. In the absence of human intervention the individual would live their lives and succumb to the natural forces which would act upon their bodies.

Do I think we should provide preventative care and basic primary care? Sure. Do I think that we can? Maybe. Do I think that healthcare is a basic human right? Absolutely not.

[toekneejo, ADN]

I agree not all people have the drive and survival instincts. I also see the USA as breeding these individiuals. Elementary schools and even some parts of high school it is not politically correct to teach this, we have adopted a philosophy of everyone is a winner and it is creating a whole generation of "losers" (in the real world). I struggled and worked since I was old enough to have a weekly "shopper" route (weekly paper). I have frequently held 2-3 jobs at any given time. I did not have this drive to end up right where I started. So I continue to ascertain my right to do with my belongings (including my job and income) as I see fit.

[SA2009]

So do I, and I don't mind at all if I give up a little of what I have, even in my current position, to ensure that I (which I now don't) and other people in this country can afford to take care of their health.

[Susie2310]

I have been reading these posts since the first page, it bothers me that two arguments continue to rear there ugly heads. The first being that of indivual sad experiences. As nurses I cannot believe that any nurse would be in favor of a person suffering for any reason. Yet, the proponents for ACA keep acting like that is what the opponents are saying. Most of the opponents , are aware there is a problem. They just aren't willing to support a problem that will not fix the healthcare and has the huge potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit. The second is that I have not seen one post from the proponents addressing the other concern to the opponents, which is how do we create an environment to where the "poor" are inspired to work harder, sacrifice more to be where we are. I grew up a very poor girl. I'd share my story but I choose not to whine and get trapped in the "poor me" scenerio.

"Most of the opponents are aware there is a problem. They just aren't willing to support a problem that will not fix the healthcare and has the potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit."

Have no clue what you are talking about in "support a problem that will not fix the healthcare . . ." What is the problem that you are speaking of? Do you consider the actuality of people receiving access to health care a problem? As far as "has the potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit", please explain the damage you think may potentially happen.

"The second is that I have not seen one post from the proponents addressing the other concern to the opponents, which is how do we create an environment to where the "poor" are inspired to work harder, sacrifice more to be where we are."

Whether people work hard or not is not part of the health care discussion. Frankly, I think it is none of your (or my) business.

[uRNmyway, ASN, RN]

Have any of you seen the video about college students who went around a campus to try a social experiment where everyone would share grades. Ie If you got an A and your buddy got an F because he has to work 2 jobs and is broke and has 3 kids he is trying to take care of (insert any other excuse here), then you both end up with a C. Most people who would support wealth redistribution sure balked real quick when there was the possibility their hard earned grades were shared, because, well I earned my grades.

Same goes with money when I earn it.

And before anyone says how its not the same in this context. You say a healthy population is important for productivity. Well, an educated population is also important. In fact, education usually plays a hand in health status.

But the point is that, when you remove the incentive to try, people try less.

For instance, in the case of the above mentioned social experiment.

Exam 1-Those who usually study hard, do so. Those who slack off, do so as well. Class average is B-.

Well now, those who studied are upset. Why did I stay up all night if I was not going to get the grade I earned? I might as well not try as hard.

Those who didn't study, well they think its awesome they can sit on their butts, do nothing, and get a good grade. They're gonna keep doing it.

Second exam-Group who usually studies a lot, well they study a little less. Their grades slip. Those who normally don't study, still don't. Class average, D.

Well now, everyone starts to accuse each other of not trying, of not caring for those who need help, who are less fortunate, who just can't do it on their own.

Final exam, no one tries, because its pointless. Everyone gets an F.

I am sure most of you has heard something similar to this in the past.

[toekneejo, ADN]

"Most of the opponents are aware there is a problem. They just aren't willing to support a problem that will not fix the healthcare and has the potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit."Have no clue what you are talking about in "support a problem that will not fix the healthcare . . ." What is the problem that you are speaking of? Do you consider the actuality of people receiving access to health care a problem? As far as "has the potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit", please explain the damage you think may potentially happen.

The ACA, in my opinion, will not fix the problem of the healthcare crisis in this country. We will go bankrupt and be sold to the highest bidder world wide (at an extreme possibility)"The second is that I have not seen one post from the proponents addressing the other concern to the opponents, which is how do we create an environment to where the "poor" are inspired to work harder, sacrifice more to be where we are."Whether people work hard or not is not part of the health care discussion. Frankly, I think it is none of your (or my)

That would be true if I wasn't having to support them. Yes the argument that we are already doing this and so it would be more efficient (which I don't see due to less MDs more patients receiving more frivolous care, pvt. Insurance failing and others) doesn't ring true to me. Besides, the system we have now is based on a society giving charity. When I volunteer at a "soup kitchen" I don't eat. I do not want to participate in this and As its stands my right to refuse has been eliminated. Another thing that is being thrown around the water cooler I hear is " If my taxes continue like they say I'm quitting and going to get on the "Obama plan" myself. Then someone will state "yeah but I'm not that sorry yet". Why are so many people willing to give up their right to have a chance to reach for the stars, for the exchange of healthcare so that they can continue to work to have healthcare so they can continue to work to have.............. I don't don't see the positve to stay healthy just to work for the government and yes I know it isn't just healthcare - it all needs revamped.

[SA2009]

Currently, I continue to work and still don't have healthcare, and that is true for many people who cannot afford current insurance rates... I'm not talking about the unemployed. People with chronic illnesses or people with cancers to whom treatment is refused or people who are discharged before they are well enough because the insurance will not take longer...

[cdsga]

Trying to inspire others is a daunting task especially when the vast majority are a "prozac nation".

Consider the ACA as a introductory offer-just like a sales spiel.

Consider your individual choice to give up some of yours over a mandate to give up some of yours.

Consider being acutely aware and informed as much as is humanly possible out here in the fringes

Consider giving more to charity where your moneys can go to your interest group(s)

Consider taking a leadership role or serve on a board where you can be more aware of where money is going

Consider volunteering for a free clinic to help ease the burden on the middle class that will be mandated to give more of their earned salary to those "less fortunate"

[cdsga]

You can't afford insurance, but have you looked at your budget? It seems that if insuring yourself is as important as feeding, clothing and sheltering yourself you would need to look at some austerity measures. You have internet, cable, eat out, watch movies, play games, get manis/pedis, have a smart phone, get your hair colored, styled, buy clothes from a retailer... just a few of the things you can cut out to give you more to spend on insurance. Not being judgmental but there are things that people spend money on that could be cut temporarily in order to pay for absolutes. Are you willing to go to an austerity plan? Most are not quite ready.

[Fiona59]

. , there are laws that need to be followed. There is a process to immigrate. It took me a little over a year to become a citizen of Canada, although I am back in the states. Regardless, I did not cross the border and set up camp.

Again, I don't have the answers but these are questions and thoughts I ponder.

Uhm, it might have taken a year to obtain permanent resident status but full citizenship takes living here for at least three years.

[FMF Corpsman, MSN, RN]

This may be slightly off topic, but it relates to our countries, (USA), fiscal responsibilities. Last night on the news, there was a story about a women and her four children who were forced to jump from a 3^rd story window after the apartment they were living in caught fire. It caught fire from a candle they had in the bathroom because they had no electricity because they had recently moved in, from a shelter they were living at. I realize that the Government can’t be the answer for everything for everybody, but it certainly seems to be that unless you are a citizen of the US. We send aid all over the world in the amount of trillions of dollars yet our own people are without the basic staples of life. They don’t even have electricity, let alone medical care. The 14-year-old girl who went out the window first yesterday broke toes in both of her feet; I wonder how they are going to deal with that. I also guess they will be moving back to the shelter since the apartment is uninhabitable now. My point is that our government sends untold amounts of money all over the world, and we can’t even afford to take care of our own. Or should I say, we choose not to take care of our own. I find that appalling. I think it is time we stop trying to take care of a world that (a) hates us to begin with, and (b) we can no longer afford to subsidize.

[joanna73, BSN, RN]

This has certainly been an interesting thread. I must interject for a second...in response to previous posts regarding the notion that Canada has low immigration, and is mostly white. False on both points. People immigrate to Canada from all over the world, partially because our immigration policies are more flexible than many other countries. We are very multicultural, and as a native non-white (biracial) Torontonian, I can attest to the fact that Toronto, and all the other major centres....Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Montreal, Halifax....are very multicultural. Back to regularly scheduled thread.....:)

[SA2009]

cdsga:

No cable, need internet to work, don't eat out, seldom watch movies (prefer to read, work 2 jobs, school = no time), don't play games unless it's a board or card game, never had manis or pedis, no smart phone still old flippidiflip, color myself, short hair/curles = styling not needing - going without shampoo too because don't want to pay that money either, buy clothes seldomly because I like a little more pricey so saving up for it.

My medication alone cost at least $200 a month w/insurance and $800 without insurance, mind you not that my meds for my condition are not covered the first year if they are covered all or only to 60% or whatever; private insurance starts $300-400/month and up... (quality of life = work to pay insurance??) - working so much results in stress results in exacerbation of illness.

My solution at this point is school to get a job that allows for insurance (how much is that for freedom of choice?) and make lifestyle changes to minimize exacerbation (rather challenging).

I'm not the only one affected in this manner; actually, I'm fortunate enough to be able to work with the ilness I have. A lot of people I work with are barely scraping by, laterally working 7 days a week, and that in itself is not healthy in itself.

Unless it will happen to you, it is hard to understand that, yes, you can fall and that really, really quickly, and then what?