Healthcare is NOT a basic human right.

Nurses Activism

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DoGoodThenGo

4,129 Posts

Thank you, Dogoodthengo, for taking the time to improve my understanding of the French health care system. I was under the misimpression that it was considered socialized medicine. While I do not think socialized medicine is a pejorative, I wish we could adopt their system.

I saw a woman today begging me for help. She has insurance. She also has a very large, widely differentiated tumor on her cervical lymph node, (nonlymphoma) adjacent to, and being fed by, her carotid artery. It grew from 4.5 to 11cm in less than 8 weeks. It will kill her very shortly. They only surgeon around who is skilled enough to to the surgery does not take Blue Cross/Blue Shield. The surgeons who do take BCBS have refused to do the surgery because of it's complexity. She and her husband cannot afford to pay out of network. Therefore, she will just die. All I can do for her is prescribe for pain and nausea. Too bad, so sad for her. AND SHE IS INSURED! It is an outrage.

She is 47. Will never see 48. At this rate she won't see Christmas. And some of you think this is moral and just. Sleep well. heh.

As one who has been to France many times and has a "love affiar" with the language and culture can honestly say everyone thinks the grass is greener on the otherside of the fence.

France's healthcare system is great, don't get me wrong, especially for pre-natal, maternity and well baby/child health but you're not going to find state of the art equipment and or physicans practicing cutting edge treatments and such on every corner as with most of the USA. If one lives in Paris, or any other of the large French cities then you're pretty well set, but once you get out into the smaller towns and or villages things can and often do change.

As the article I posted upthread states, if a maternity hospital/unit closes in one's small French town you may have to travel tens, if not a score or more miles to the next.

Regarding the situation you describe about your patient, that just makes me sick!

Disgusting and repulsive as that poor woman's situation may be, it happens every day in this here country.

Specializes in HH, Peds, Rehab, Clinical.

Some would argue that the responsible thing to do would have been for her husband (or her) to have maintained the insurance that they had rather than take a position that didn't offer any coverage. Not me per se, but I can a hear a couple of acquaintances making that arguement!! How very sad for this young family =(

Back in 2005, I was working on an Oncology floor in an area hospital. One afternoon we admitted a 34 yr old mother of two elementary school aged children to our floor. Jennifer (not her real name) had been to a walk-in clinic earlier that day and the doctor there had called our Oncologist and sent Jennifer to the hospital.

Jennifer had been diagnosed with breast cancer in her 20's and had been treated at the time and the treatment worked. She had a strong family history of breast cancer, both her mother and aunt were survivors. When Jennifer was diagnosed, she and her husband had insurance through their jobs. Jennifer was supposed to go back to her Oncologist every 6 mos. or so after her treatment for follow up exams to make sure the cancer did not return. Jennifer's husband had graduated from college in the meantime and had a new job as a preacher for a small local church. They had no insurance after her cancer treatment and were not eligible for Medicaid. Because of Jennifer's medical history, they could not get any other insurance coverage. She did not go for the follow-ups.

Jennifer had gone to the walk in clinic that day because she had a cough that just wouldn't go away. She had avoided seeking any help before this because it was too expensive to pay out of pocket and she didn't want to take money for this away from her family's already tight budget. She knew they would never have been able to afford the expensive tests needed to monitor her. She put her family's needs first.

After Jennifer was admitted to our floor, she was sent for a multitude of scans. They showed that she was full of metastasis everywhere. Because of her age, it was decided to aggressively treat the cancer and she was sent home for outpatient chemo treatment. This was in May. In July, she was admitted back to our floor and we barely recognized her. She was swollen from head to toe and had lost all of her hair. She was weak, tired and in pain, everywhere. She had opportunistic infections of every kind. We hooked her up to a PCA pump and kept her comfortable. She lost consciousness and died on our floor a few days later.

Her young husband was devastated and now faced raising two young children alone. Those two children must grow up without their mother. I saw the fear on the faces of Jennifer's two sisters as they watched her suffer and die so quickly, surely fearful that this could happen to them, too.

The nurses on my floor cried over the loss of Jennifer for days. Some of the nurses kept in touch with her husband and I believe he remarried a few yrs. later.

I wish this story was a rare one, but it is not in this country. Because of the type of cancer she had, the same fate ultimately may have awaited Jennifer, but I believe she would have had more time with her children if she been covered by insurance and had been able to receive the appropriate follow-up care she needed.

toekneejo, ADN

60 Posts

I have been reading these posts since the first page, it bothers me that two arguments continue to rear there ugly heads. The first being that of indivual sad experiences. As nurses I cannot believe that any nurse would be in favor of a person suffering for any reason. Yet, the proponents for ACA keep acting like that is what the opponents are saying. Most of the opponents , are aware there is a problem. They just aren't willing to support a problem that will not fix the healthcare and has the huge potential to be damaging to the country as a whole unit. The second is that I have not seen one post from the proponents addressing the other concern to the opponents, which is how do we create an environment to where the "poor" are inspired to work harder, sacrifice more to be where we are. I grew up a very poor girl. I'd share my story but I choose not to whine and get trapped in the "poor me" scenerio.

wooh, BSN, RN

1 Article; 4,383 Posts

which is how do we create an environment to where the "poor" are inspired to work harder, sacrifice more to be where we are.

Perhaps we start by realizing that many of the "poor" are already working harder and sacrificing more than a lot of us.

toekneejo, ADN

60 Posts

Perhaps we start by realizing that many of the "poor" are already working harder and sacrificing more than a lot of us.
. I might be willing to support this but I would need more stats.... How many households are without cable? How many households are without electronics (games, computers, phones, music, etc)? How many households in this "group" are not using their resources for addictive activities (nicotine, alcohol, gambling, etc)? How many are refusing a job due to it being "too hard" or "beneath" them? Please don't think that I am wanting to argue - on the contrary I am trying to see the validity of the other side.

toekneejo, ADN

60 Posts

In addition, sorry I just thiught about this. For the above "group" I and most are willing to assist in charitable ways. But why is the ACA seen as the only answer? One does not cut off his nose to spite his face

withasmilelpn

582 Posts

Specializes in Rehab, LTC, Peds, Hospice.
I feel that the fight against universal healthcare is a very uncaring and selfish one.

If we have the ability to help others- to SAVE THEIR LIVES...we should do so. Every life is worthy.

I AGREE -don't understand how people can be so uncaring. Say we stop providing emergency care when someone is in a car accident - it's not a right - correct? No proof of ability to pay - no care - never mind that you are unconscious, just hurry up and die... A little suffering is good for the soul???

It's uncivilized. And it used to happen that hospitals turned away people, even in emergency situations before laws were enacted requiring emergency rooms to treat. No proof of ability to pay = no care. Is this what we should return to?

Or should we pick and choose; routine health care is not a right, emergency health care is? Most people opt to continue offering emergency care when faced with the consequences of not providing it.

The problem with that sort of theory is that people without routine health care often end up in our very expensive emergency care system, unable to pay anyway for things that could've been prevented in the first place a lot cheaper.

It bothers me also that our system is geared towards working people and that once you can't work due to illness you're no longer of value. Insurance is obtained through work, work that requires full time hours. (Part time - out of luck to obtain insurance unless you're married or a dependent. Of course you could buy insurance, however its unlikely that you'll be able to afford it with your part time hours. And there is a high increase in the number of part time jobs as opposed to full time with benefits these days - another thing to consider.)

Insurance premiums must be paid, regardless if your in the hospital fighting cancer and no longer bringing in income. Can't come up with the $ to pay it - not our problem - just do your family a favor and die already. You're a drain on society.

Lose your job, again your option is to take advantage of COBRA and purchase your former insurance at a much higher rate. Somehow you're to purchase this with no income maybe or while receiving unemployment at a sharply reduced income that you had previously. (You have to be eligible as well, employed long enough prior to qualify, btw.)

I also have to point out that insurance in no way guarantees that a person is safe from going bankrupt. A foundation I contribute to that raises money for people in need of $ to cover their medical costs pointed out that 80% of it's members had insurance. Many were in danger of losing everything they had worked for all their lives. Something is seriously wrong with that!

And don't get me started on the mentally ill homeless population that our country has.

Healthcare for all just makes sense. Healthy people equal productive people. (And to those that carp on and on about the waiting for care in countries that have universal health care, we wait here too. I know because I make the appointments.)

We might as well just be a third world country without it.

cdsga

391 Posts

Specializes in ICU, PACU, OR.

It is hard to not let emotions get in the way of our decision making. We all have situations where we see suffering and unfairness. Not everything is "ponies, puppies and butterflies". It is a harsh world. This is a complex situation but I still feel that the federal gov't in this country is not capable of handling such a huge issue.

The fear of people travelling to different states to find work, to find healthcare etc, has not been substantiated in large numbers.

Think of the states that have harsh weather, that have low populations in rural areas like North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming etc.

People stay in states because they have interests there or have family there. We have people in Appalachia who stay in that area despite opportunities elsewhere. Why? Various reasons. I'm not concerned with this unfounded fear.

I'm more concerned with the implementation of the ACA in 2014. Paying taxes for 4 years prior to implementation. Federal Gov't fining those who choose not to have insurance, increasing the number of IRS agents to implement the fines, not enough doctors to see the increase patient load expected, not to mention nurses to staff the units. The gov't has started planning for their part, but the private sector has no idea-just speculation on how it will effect them and the latest report from the CMS is that they underestimated the penalties/no reimbursements for hospital re-admissions. Legislators passed this without reading it.

The ACA will not benefit people any more than what we have now. We'll still wait, we'll see sicker people, have less resources, can expect increased numbers of readmissions due to the complexity of their illnesses, and will not have enough medical personnel to answer the demand. If you have a pre-existing illness, you'll be able to get insurance, but the premiums will be high. Why? Because insurance companies don't give handouts. They have to make a profit, invest money, etc, in order to pay out large claims. It's no different if you choose to live on a floodplain or hurricane zone. You can get insurance, but you'll be paying a huge amount of money to live in a high risk area. Insurance is all about risk and probability. We pay "just in case" we get sick. Years go by you pay, and you may not ever need it. I would suggest looking into a life insurance policy that you can use as an advantage plan if you have a chronic illness-no one suggests that. But that is a possibility and if I had a family member with cancer or any other dreaded chronic disease, that would be step one.

I know hospitals are closing doors, consolidating resources, cutting costs, using cheaper supplies, hiring less experienced personnel to have bodies and cut the cost of salaries. etc. They will and the clinics will too, find solutions to stay solvent. This is a business, not a charity.

Specializes in Medical Surgical/Addiction/Mental Health.

This thread is an example of why nothing gets accomplished. There will always be a debate on this very topic. We all have opinions, but the topic at hand is so much more complex than being presented. I will admit that I don’t know the answer. What I do know is that we are currently borrowing against the nation’s line of credit to continue financing programs. In other words, we are spending more than we are receiving in tax revenue. Anyone with a basic understanding of finance should realize that this is a problem.

I feel people, regardless of socioeconomic backgrounds, should have access to healthcare. However, is our country at a point where we can realistically afford this? I have not researched it, but some of you have indicated that those countries who offer national healthcare have high taxes. Is this something that is feasible in the nation’s current condition? Could it potentially bankrupt the country? Where is the country’s breaking point? These are important questions to ask. If our country goes bankrupt, each of us will be in the same position; poor. If that happens, will you say it was worth having universal healthcare? Don’t misunderstand me, I am compassionate and wish that everyone could have equal access, but I also worry about whether or not doing so will expose the majority of Americans (middle class) to undue hardships. Our country does not have unlimited resources.

I do think universal healthcare will create competition among the private insurance companies. That competition, in my opinion, will lead to lower premium pricing. Why? If I am offered health insurance through my employer and it is $200.00/month and I can obtain similar coverage through the government for $105.00/month, which option do you think I would choose? The other positive is that if I left my employer, I would not be required to pay the ridiculous COBRA premiums. I would continue being responsible for the $105.00/month.

I do think people should be held responsible for contributing to their healthcare premiums and co-pays even if that means paying $1.00. No more scripts for Ibuprofen 800mg. People can pay for it over the counter. There must be some sense of ownership. If not, the entitlement people exhibit today will only become worse. There also needs to be more stringent guidelines for entitlement programs. Furthermore, how much more can we continue to contribute to illegal’s healthcare? If an emergency, okay. While I can appreciate wanting to come to the states and starting a new life, there are laws that need to be followed. There is a process to immigrate. It took me a little over a year to become a citizen of Canada, although I am back in the states. Regardless, I did not cross the border and set up camp.

Again, I don’t have the answers but these are questions and thoughts I ponder.

toekneejo, ADN

60 Posts

At the risk of sounding harsh and being taken out of context....... The comments made about people opposing the ACA are not accurate. I find people, that are willing to argue that what I have is theirs for taking, without even a thankyou, are the ones uncaring and selfish. It reminds me of when my kids were little and it'd be someone's bday and the other one would try to lay a guilt trip of "where's mine"! I am not opposed to helping out but you can't even call it helping out when the government has control. I am just a pawn for their disposal. I think it is pretty harsh to take the backbone of America to the next level and watch them toil away and never have a shimmer of hope. The poor still won't have any and now we've taken it from the next tier of society. How is that not selfish?

SA2009

72 Posts

Great that it work for you. One thing that is missing for many is a solid family, which means supportive relatives and/or friends plus who promote education. Family and immediate social network is Key 1 and and education Key 2. As you are starting now to deal with generations where a large population has neither Key 1 or 2, or only Key 1 (still a better chance) or Key 2, you have a problem. Healthcare is one part of the problem, but it is not the whole problem. I have taught kids and adults, and you can tell some of them will make it and some won't, but look at this: In parts with an overflooded employment market... bring jobs back!! well - that won't work.... or tell me how can you bring jobs in steal mining, coal mining or the assembly lines in the automobile industries back? These people will not find jobs in the computer industry or other jobs that are now needed because they don't have the schooling... They may not even feel comfortable working at computers or telemarketing, etc. ... bring jobs back from overseas!! ... seriously, the companies increased their profit margins hugely by taking them overseas ... so, that won't happen until those countries smarten up and raise their labor cost and as we made ourselves dependent on them (not only the US but also Europe), this will create a host of other problems.

So, just to say "I grew up poor and I made it," is nice for you, but other people may not be equipped with the stools you had, i.e. willpower, discipline, strive, etc. Some kids never see that in their surroundings or they see it is there but it won't help.

... one of my teachers in law way back told me that you must see society just like a family and neighborhood because that is exactly how they interact, so if the family does not function right, someone has to step in and has to put the foot down and say these are the changes we must make to do better.

cdsga

391 Posts

Specializes in ICU, PACU, OR.

So we have a dysfunctional family and the federal government in all it's infinite wisdom has now become our family counselor?

Someone has to step in? You willing to interact in this dysfunction? Make the sacrifice?

Talk is cheap. Everyone talks about the sacrifice and the noble causes. When it comes down to you and yours and everyone else--I think you'll keep yours and finally decide that religion starts at home. Take care of yourself first then you can help others.

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