Health Care is Not a Right - page 4

Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for... Read More

  1. by   elkpark
    Quote from Tetra
    Well, usually, one is paying for fire service in the municipality they reside. If a municipal fire service has to leave the city to help those outside the city, they are charged (as they should be). So what you're saying here isn't true. You generally speaking get the service you pay for.

    Note, you are also opting (I assume) to pay... that's your right.

    That's different then saying someone has a right to your money regardless if you desire to pay or not.
    No, my point is that I am being forced to pay taxes for police and firefighting services I don't use (have never used), that other people do. I am not "opting to pay." If I don't pay my taxes, the municipality will eventually take my house from me. Money is being taken from me, against my will, to pay for police and firefighting services for others. According to you, that's immoral socialism. How is that different from universal healthcare again?
  2. by   Tetra
    Quote from elkpark
    No, my point is that I am being forced to pay taxes for police and firefighting services I don't use (have never used), that other people do. I am not "opting to pay." If I don't pay my taxes, the municipality will eventually take my house from me. Money is being taken from me, against my will, to pay for police and firefighting services for others. According to you, that's immoral socialism. How is that different from universal healthcare again?
    I assume you want access to those services? You'd be correct though, if you have no desire to have access to that service, so be it. That should be your right. Yes, it would be immoral for someone to take your money to benefit from services they're not paying for, and that you have no desire to pay for.
  3. by   operations
    Yeah sorry, disagree with everything you said, even the part about the philosophy you studied. Socialism is just theft? That's a very ignorant and one dimensional view of a very broad topic involved in almost every modern society and discussed in highly regarded books in depth in great detail. If that's how you start your conversations "socialism is theft", be prepared to be disregarded instantly by anyone who actually knows anything about economics.

    You can't put something as complex as healthcare in a one dimensional black and white little box of "Well whose gonna pay for it? If not you, it's THEFT!"

    Healthcare is not just A right. It is THE right. Right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I don't believe you have the educational background to understand my argument for healthcare as really the only right a person has, otherwise I would gladly go into detail

    Everyone complaining about who owes them what and how you paid for this and that and how you earned every dime all by yourself:

    You have no concept of how interdependent you are. The reason you have anything is because you are part of a group, society, which has provided for you everything and every tool that you have had since you were conceived. The over individualistic perspective you have is purely an illusion by inability to perceive your complete dependancy on the whole.

    I'm really amazed how many nurses don't think healthcare is a right. You have the right to heathcare... That's different than how it's payed for... As for just healthcare you have a right to it, and that is based on ethics, collectivism, responsibility.

    This means the government can't say "okay, we are running out of doctors and there is way too many people in the nursing home. It's costing us way too much. So here's the new law:everyone above 60 is no longer permitted to recieve medical attention anymore. You don't have the right to it anyway, it's just a privilege, and you are wasting resources. "

    Think of that precedent before you say "healthcare isn't a right". That's a very dangerous thing to throw around.

    If you mean who is responsible who ultimately pays for the Healthcare, that's different, and it isn't black and white either. That comes down to management which takes many factors in to account in order to create the best outcomes
    Last edit by operations on Sep 4
  4. by   Fiona59
    [QUOTE=Tetra;9556218]Well, universal health care in Ontario where I am isn't technically speaking "universal"... citizenship is a requirement. Otherwise you'll get billed after service. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one? (that's not rhetorical).

    Well, usually, one is paying for fire service in the municipality they reside. If a municipal fire service has to leave the city to help those outside the city, they are charged (as they should be). So what you're saying here isn't true. You generally speaking get the service you pay for.

    Note, you are also opting (I assume) to pay... that's your right.

    That's different then saying someone has a right to your money regardless if you desire to pay or not.[/QUOTE

    You are a 34 yo Cdn. who doesn't understand the system you live under and benefit from.

    Landed immigrant/permanent resident status entitles one to healthcare in Canada. Refugees are funded at the federal level and that's a whole other issue.
  5. by   Tetra
    Quote from operations
    Yeah sorry, disagree with everything you said, even the part about the philosophy you studied. Socialism is just theft? That's a very ignorant and one dimensional view of a very broad topic involved in almost every modern society and discussed in highly regarded books in depth in great detail. If that's how you start your conversations "socialism is theft", be prepared to be disregarded instantly by anyone who actually knows anything about economics.

    You can't put something as complex as healthcare in a one dimensional black and white little box of "Well whose gonna pay for it? If not you, it's THEFT!"

    Healthcare is not just A right. It is THE right. Right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I don't believe you have the educational background to understand my argument for healthcare as really the only right a person has, otherwise I would gladly go into detail
    I love debate so I'm down.

    Yes I distilled socialism down to theft through taxation. Love for you to prove to me it's not.

    Also, feel free to attempt to prove health care is a right, it'll be a first in this thread... so I'm all ears.
  6. by   Tetra
    [QUOTE=Fiona59;9556319]
    Quote from Tetra
    Well, universal health care in Ontario where I am isn't technically speaking "universal"... citizenship is a requirement. Otherwise you'll get billed after service. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one? (that's not rhetorical).

    Well, usually, one is paying for fire service in the municipality they reside. If a municipal fire service has to leave the city to help those outside the city, they are charged (as they should be). So what you're saying here isn't true. You generally speaking get the service you pay for.

    Note, you are also opting (I assume) to pay... that's your right.

    That's different then saying someone has a right to your money regardless if you desire to pay or not.[/QUOTE

    You are a 34 yo Cdn. who doesn't understand the system you live under and benefit from.

    Landed immigrant/permanent resident status entitles one to healthcare in Canada. Refugees are funded at the federal level and that's a whole other issue.
    I wasn't making any claims, it actually was a question... hence the question mark. lol
  7. by   djh123
    You're entitled to your opinions, but I think healthcare SHOULD be a right, universally, whether it IS a right or not. It IS in most industrialzed countries. And although we don't like them - but I differ in that I actually think about what they are USED for, not simply whether I'm taxed or not, or how much - but I don't exactly view taxes as 'theft'.
  8. by   elkpark
    Quote from Tetra
    I love debate so I'm down.

    Yes I distilled socialism down to theft through taxation. Love for you to prove to me it's not.

    Also, feel free to attempt to prove health care is a right, it'll be a first in this thread... so I'm all ears.
    We're talking about philosophical positions here, not objective truths -- no one can "prove" to you that health care is a right, or taxation isn't theft, since you don't believe it. Just as you can't convince us that your views are correct.
  9. by   Tetra
    Quote from djh123
    You're entitled to your opinions, but I think healthcare SHOULD be a right, universally, whether it IS a right or not. It IS in most industrialzed countries. And although we don't like them - but I differ in that I actually think about what they are USED for, not simply whether I'm taxed or not, or how much - but I don't exactly view taxes as 'theft'.
    I view taxation as theft when it's for services one does not desire to have, nor benefit from. What someone pays in taxes, one needs in services.

    I get what you're saying, and guess I just disagree is all.
  10. by   djh123
    Quote from Tetra
    I view taxation as theft when it's for services one does not desire to have, nor benefit from. What someone pays in taxes, one needs in services.

    I get what you're saying, and guess I just disagree is all.
    The thing is, many of us disagree on a lot of specific things money is spent on, but it's difficult to have a modern society without taxing people to pay for roads, schools, military, and many other things.
  11. by   Tetra
    Quote from elkpark
    We're talking about philosophical positions here, not objective truths -- no one can "prove" to you that health care is a right, or taxation isn't theft, since you don't believe it. Just as you can't convince us that your views are correct.
    Respectfully, this is actually incorrect. If one makes a truth claim, one has the burden of proof. Stating "universal health care is a right" is a truth claim. You're correct that someone may choose to reject the claim, but that doesn't alter the truth of the claim.

    This is going off topic though.
  12. by   Tetra
    Quote from djh123
    The thing is, many of us disagree on a lot of specific things money is spent on, but it's difficult to have a modern society without taxing people to pay for roads, schools, military, and many other things.
    I have no problem with that, because I benefit from those things, schools, roads, etc. What do I benefit from Jane getting a hit replacement?

    I stated earlier, I have a friend who is wealthy enough to pay for all the privatized health care he wants for two lifetimes. Why can't he opt out of taxation in regards to health care?
  13. by   Rose_Queen
    How Much Leftist Ideology Has Corrupted Nursing? | allnurses

    I honestly don't think nursing would be a wise career choice for you.

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