Health Care is Not a Right - page 14

Before we get into it, I'm going into first year nursing... but I'm not some young kid. I'm 34, married with a family, studied philosophy in my early 20's, and lived well below the poverty line for... Read More

  1. by   Tetra
    Quote from Fiona59
    Why are you on a doll? Don't you have a real partner?
    Good catch, *dole sorry.
  2. by   ItsThatJenGirl
    This has perhaps been said already (I couldn't bring myself to read all 14 pages, apologies), but have you considered that it's easy to say healthcare isn't a right when you've never been faced with paying for things on your own? Been denied care because you couldn't afford it? Or had to file bankruptcy because your kid got cancer?

    It's easy to have opinions on things that haven't had to actually face.
  3. by   Tetra
    Quote from ItsThatJenGirl
    This has perhaps been said already (I couldn't bring myself to read all 14 pages, apologies), but have you considered that it's easy to say healthcare isn't a right when you've never been faced with paying for things on your own? Been denied care because you couldn't afford it? Or had to file bankruptcy because your kid got cancer?

    It's easy to have opinions on things that haven't had to actually face.
    This made this point earlier, I have filed for bankruptcy, we have always been low income. My family and I have faced a lot of problems... but I try and not use government aid. Yes, I understand my schooling is semi financed, but on the flip side I've also taken my gun and shot my dinner when I ran out of money too. (Side note, I was hoping to make a future "nurses who love guns thread"). No one here knows me, and it really doesn't matter. I'm pro privatized health care, or at bare minimum, a true two tier.

    This has always been a funny argument though. It's as though people believe the poor couldn't be against socialism. In my experience, the poor have a wide variety of political views.
  4. by   Fiona59
    The whole gun thing has been done already.

    Who can forget the "nurses should carry at work" thread of a few years back.
  5. by   Tetra
    Quote from Fiona59
    The whole gun thing has been done already.

    Who can forget the "nurses should carry at work" thread of a few years back.
    I just started a general gun lovers thread, didn't realize. There's an interesting take though, but I can't carry handguns for self defense in Canada so never really thought about it, only to the range.
  6. by   ItsThatJenGirl
    Quote from Tetra
    This made this point earlier, I have filed for bankruptcy, we have always been low income. My family and I have faced a lot of problems... but I try and not use government aid. Yes, I understand my schooling is semi financed, but on the flip side I've also taken my gun and shot my dinner when I ran out of money too. (Side note, I was hoping to make a future "nurses who love guns thread"). No one here knows me, and it really doesn't matter. I'm pro privatized health care, or at bare minimum, a true two tier.

    This has always been a funny argument though. It's as though people believe the poor couldn't be against socialism. In my experience, the poor have a wide variety of political views.
    You're missing my point. You know what it's like to be poor - me too. You don't, however, know what it's like to live without the safety net of health insurance. It's something you're privileged enough to get to take for granted.
  7. by   shibaowner
    Quote from Tetra
    Unfortunately I don't know if you know what libertarianism is, you're presupposing it means everyone values money.... rather, you're simply free to value whatever you desire. I choose to work in a lot of non-profits when I was younger. Didn't ever really make much working in a youth drop in for 5 years.

    Like I said, the intolerance on this forum is nuts... I'm really happy to not be one of your patients, or many of the other nurses that are on this forum. That's actually scary.

    Go read what you wrote... and / or go read what others have wrote... I don't think it's too hard to ask people to stick to the argument, and not my character. Maybe that wasn't taught in nursing school?
    Your beliefs reflect YOU. I do understand libertarianism. And you yourself stated you believed in paying for what one consumes. It is you who do not understand libertarianism. The libertarian philosophy is fundamentally incompatible with the modern practice of medicine. Currently, in the USA, libertarianism is associated with a belief in (conservative) free market principles along with a desire for personal liberty. There are other schools of libertarian thought, but I am addressing this one.

    Modern healthcare requires huge systems and regulations over scope of practice, R&D, the pharma companies, hospitals, equipment producers, development of guidelines, etc., etc. Nursing itself is highly regulated, as it should be. A libertarian would argue against most of this. Libertarians are also opposed to national health insurance ala Canada and the UK. In addition, they often argue healthcare is not a basic human right, as you have done, and healthcare should only be provided to people who can pay for it. Unfortunately, there are many people who are very poor who cannot afford to pay for healthcare. There are also many others who can't afford to pay for all of their healthcare expenses.

    As a society, at least in the USA, we have decided people do have certain rights - life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That is why we provide free public education through high school. We have also decided people in the USA should not starve to death, which is why we created a social safety net. In addition, the government provides public safety services such as fire, police, clean water, etc. Americans are increasingly viewing healthcare as one of these rights and it make sense - healthcare is integral to the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    In addition, we have a moral system, which at the present is essentially a Judeo Christian system. I am also a Christian. Jesus did not ask for payment when he healed the sick. He also spent a lot of time encouraging people to help the poor. In the Western world, it has long been considered a good thing to assist the less fortunate, both for an individual and for society. It is not in society's interest to have hordes of poor people homeless, begging, and starving on the streets, committing crimes of desperation, and spreading filth and disease. In essence, the US has rejected "pure" libertarianism, thank goodness. I consider this philosophy morally bankrupt.

    Most of your responses have been to complain that people are attacking you and being judgmental and intolerant. We are not a bunch of philosophers who want to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (or if the angels or pin exist). We are NURSES who chose to enter the profession because of a calling to help people. Frankly, your posts offend me. The thought of people with such beliefs entering the profession is what is scary.

    Finally, you give no real world solutions or how you would even put your appalling beliefs into nursing practice. You don't respond to concrete criticisms of what a libertarian society would be like. You just want to waste our time by stirring the pot. Your argument might be interesting if you said something like "I don't believe healthcare is a right and therefore nursing practice should . . . " or " . . . these are my ideas for improving nursing in accordance with these beliefs."
    Last edit by shibaowner on Sep 7
  8. by   Tetra
    Quote from ItsThatJenGirl
    You're missing my point. You know what it's like to be poor - me too. You don't, however, know what it's like to live without the safety net of health insurance. It's something you're privileged enough to get to take for granted.
    I see you point, I've also stated earlier I have not really used our health care system... or rather, have tried my best not to. If anything, it wouldn't be my safety net, but my lack of even needing the safety net. However, even if I needed money, I'd look for another avenue then take it from someone who doesn't wish to give it to me.
  9. by   ItsThatJenGirl
    Quote from Tetra
    I see you point, I've also stated earlier I have not really used our health care system... or rather, have tried my best not to. If anything, it wouldn't be my safety net, but my lack of even needing the safety net. However, even if I needed money, I'd look for another avenue then take it from someone who doesn't wish to give it to me.
    Well let's hope you never have to make that choice.
  10. by   Tetra
    Quote from shibaowner
    Your beliefs reflect YOU. I do understand libertarianism. And you yourself stated you believed in paying for what one consumes. It is you who do not understand libertarianism. The libertarian philosophy is fundamentally incompatible with the modern practice of medicine. Currently, in the USA, libertarianism is associated with a belief in (conservative) free market principles along with a desire for personal liberty. There are other schools of libertarian thought, but I am addressing this one.
    I do believe in a true free market medical system... and why is it incompatible again?

    Quote from shibaowner
    Modern healthcare requires huge systems and regulations over scope of practice, R&D, the pharma companies, hospitals, equipment producers, development of guidelines, etc., etc. Nursing itself is highly regulated, as it should be. A libertarian would argue against most of this.
    Some would. I would argue nursing should be regulated and those okay with being regulated can enter the field. Regulations on drugs I'd be firmly against... the war on drugs is useless but that's another thread.

    Quote from shibaowner
    In addition, they often argue healthcare is not a basic human right, as you have done, and healthcare should only be provided to people who can pay for it. Unfortunately, there are many people who are very poor who cannot afford to pay for healthcare. There are also many others who can't afford to pay for all of their healthcare expenses.
    No, I didn't say that at all. I'm perfectly fine if people want to pay for others health care, rock on. I also said it is a right, known as a positive right.

    Quote from shibaowner
    In addition, we have a moral system, which at the present is essentially a Judeo Christian system. I am also a Christian. Jesus did not ask for payment when he healed the sick. He also spent a lot of time encouraging people to help the poor..
    Cool, I'm glad Jesus did those things.

    Quote from shibaowner
    Most of your responses have been to complain that people are attacking you and being judgmental and intolerant. We are not a bunch of philosophers who want to debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (or if the angels or pin exist). We are NURSES who chose to enter the profession because of a calling to help people. Frankly, your posts offend me. The thought of people like you entering the profession is what is scary.
    I don't think you've read most of my responses. Most of my responses have been about the argument till the end, until the majority of nurses on here resorted to ad hominems. Feel free to go count the posts, or should I simply to prove the point?

    It's okay to be offended.

    Quote from shibaowner
    Finally, you give no real world solutions or how you would even put your deluded and morally deficient beliefs into nursing practice. You don't respond to concrete criticisms of what a libertarian society would be like. We don't have time for your sophomoric musings. Grow up
    When did I say I have solutions? in fact, if you read the thread, I said I don't. However, I don't think socialized health care is right. So it's a moral dilemma for me. Is your argument actually that unless I have all the answers, I can't share what I think the problem is? lol

    This whole response of yours leads me to the conclusion that you really didn't read the whole thread, and you're simply trying to justify your attack on my character.

    Also, no one is keeping you on this thread... don't feel like talking about the nature of rights, move along.
    Last edit by Tetra on Sep 7
  11. by   Tetra
    Quote from ItsThatJenGirl
    Well let's hope you never have to make that choice.
    I really hope so too!! Never once said I wasn't a blessed person.
  12. by   subee
    Quote from That Guy
    I believe in healthcare as a right, but I also believe in personal responsibility. I don't mind helping and footing the bill for some, but when you willfully destroy your body thats on you.
    Is it irresponsible eating to eat one fry? What about 10 fries? How would you go about denying the CABG for the patient ? Who would decide what is good or bad? I wish life were ad simple as the OP would suggest. Then someone who argues like a college kid with absolutely no experience could tell us how to set up a new system anew. I kinda wish I were around to see how he applied his simplistic philosophy major stages to a real life turd of a health care system. Our congressmen are verrrrry happy with their free health care.
  13. by   Tetra
    Quote from subee
    Is it irresponsible eating to eat one fry? What about 10 fries? How would you go about denying the CABG for the patient ? Who would decide what is good or bad? I wish life were ad simple as the OP would suggest. Then someone who argues like a college kid with absolutely no experience could tell us how to set up a new system anew. I kinda wish I were around to see how he applied his simplistic philosophy major stages to a real life turd of a health care system. Our congressmen are verrrrry happy with their free health care.
    It would help if there was less fallacious reasoning on this forum. Why is it necessary to have experience to argue health care isn't a fundamental human right? I don't see what one has to do with the other...

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