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Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924



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No. 30
Old Sep 09, 2008, 08:13 PM
Updated Sep 09, 2008 at 08:20 PM by HoosierMale

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
Originally Posted by alan headbloom View Post
Where are the Foreign Nurses?
by Carl Shusterman

Any topic involving immigration is sure to spark a debate these days – including the topic of foreign-trained nurses...
I agree with the vast majority of nurses... providing patients with nurses who do not understand the culture or language of America is negligent. I would guess that you represent an employment agency who would be making money by farming out these nurses from the Phillipines, India, Malaysia etc to take care of my neighbor and families parents and children. For the amount of work required of students to be accepted and complete nursing school, the wages you state are but a pittance compared to other like jobs. The ANA is opposed to this bill and they are the association which has traditionally reflected the morale compass of major nursing debate. The scholarship and evidence on this issue is very clear. As in other fields where corporate America has sought to destroy wages and have a ready stable of corporate drones making money, they seek to outsource but one of the few remaining jobs for which our children may aspire, outsource for greed and stockholder profit. It is time to think about patient care and not ways to circumvent the need for higher wages and more quality nursing schools. Our patients must not forced to be cared for by Visa holders ill-familiar with the culture or language who carry questionable credentials and taking a honorable job which should be available to our own for a competitive salary and a reasonable and safe environment.
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No. 31
Old Sep 09, 2008, 10:13 PM

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
Dear Hoosier,

I do not represent employment agencies though I do make my living training people from all sides of cultural difference how to get along. I absolutely agree with you that communication is best undertaken when both caregiver and care-receiver have common experiences and understanding. However, US nursing programs are not turning out enough graduates. I would love it that they did. But they currently don't. In the mean time, sick Americans need to be cared for. Who's going to do it? Non-trained US citizens (by virtue of their passports) or trained non-citizens because they have the chutzpah to pick up and move to a place where xenophobes try to keep them out? It's a numbers game, and we need to keep staffing up. If you have a way to get more American nurses into American hospitals, I'm all ears.

Alan
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No. 32
Old Sep 22, 2008, 08:12 AM

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
The answer is not to place patients at risk and alienate them from their caregivers.
The answer is very simple.
The answer is to improve work conditions.
The answer is to increase pay for nurses which has been stymied many years because it has been a traditionally female role.
The answer is to provide equitable salaries and attractive benefits to attract, retain, and encourage nurse teachers.
The answer is not to bring in foreign nurses which threaten patient care, morale and our health care system.
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No. 33
from jagoda
Old Oct 27, 2008, 10:21 AM

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
Originally Posted by HoosierMale View Post
I agree with the vast majority of nurses... providing patients with nurses who do not understand the culture or language of America is negligent. I would guess that you represent an employment agency who would be making money by farming out these nurses from the Phillipines, India, Malaysia etc to take care of my neighbor and families parents and children. For the amount of work required of students to be accepted and complete nursing school, the wages you state are but a pittance compared to other like jobs. The ANA is opposed to this bill and they are the association which has traditionally reflected the morale compass of major nursing debate. The scholarship and evidence on this issue is very clear. As in other fields where corporate America has sought to destroy wages and have a ready stable of corporate drones making money, they seek to outsource but one of the few remaining jobs for which our children may aspire, outsource for greed and stockholder profit. It is time to think about patient care and not ways to circumvent the need for higher wages and more quality nursing schools. Our patients must not forced to be cared for by Visa holders ill-familiar with the culture or language who carry questionable credentials and taking a honorable job which should be available to our own for a competitive salary and a reasonable and safe environment.
You are being an ignorant jerk saying these things about foreign nurses "who carry questionable credentials and taking an honorable job".
First off, in my home country, Poland, you need to have a master's degree to be a nurse. There is no ADN or BSN. I believe most foreign nurses are more qualified than "your own" to do such "an honorable job".
Second, there is a shortage and it is only becoming more profound. Someone needs to take care of those sick patients, unless you want to have a nurse patient ratio around 1:20. Good luck!
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No. 34
Old Oct 27, 2008, 01:39 PM

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
I do not know where you got your information but it is incorrect. Specifically, in Poland the information I have is very different from what you have stated. I am aware that until recently, nurses only had pre-university nursing education in Poland which was only discontinued in 2002/2003 at the insistence of the EU 15 who found serious deficiencies and took specific sanctions against Poland.
Only 80 per cent of Polish Nurses were recognized by the EU as valid nurses and could only practice as health assistants according to the Accession Treaty related to the training in EU states. That is one reason they began to look elsewhere.
That the EU took this action to protect their member states from what they deem as substandard or deficient education seems to support my point. You should check your data before you post it as fact.
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No. 35
from ivanh3
Old Oct 29, 2008, 12:21 PM

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
Originally Posted by HoosierMale View Post
I agree with the vast majority of nurses... providing patients with nurses who do not understand the culture or language of America is negligent.

It is time to think about patient care and not ways to circumvent the need for higher wages and more quality nursing schools. Our patients must not forced to be cared for by Visa holders ill-familiar with the culture or language who carry questionable credentials and taking a honorable job which should be available to our own for a competitive salary and a reasonable and safe environment.
Originally Posted by HoosierMale View Post
The answer is not to place patients at risk and alienate them from their caregivers.
The answer is very simple.
The answer is to improve work conditions.
The answer is to increase pay for nurses which has been stymied many years because it has been a traditionally female role.
The answer is to provide equitable salaries and attractive benefits to attract, retain, and encourage nurse teachers.
The answer is not to bring in foreign nurses which threaten patient care, morale and our health care system.

Uhh, Sir,
You don't speak for me. Shame on you. You should be careful when say things "vast majority". I have posted on this before. I have worked with, trained with, struggled with, many foreign trained nurses and found them to be excellent, and I would have NO problems whatsoever with them taking care of me or my family. So please, sir, tell me, what exactly is the "culture of America"? I don't' think you have a clue as to what that is based on the xenophobic statements like those you are making here.

If you are of the attitude that a foreign born nurse will alienate the patients I can't help but wonder how far you go not to alienate your foreign born patients who might have a language barrier.

You guys keep saying things like higher money and higher wages, yet no one will state where that money will come from. I hear things like nurse educators (for nursing programs, not staff development) should be paid more. Those nurse educators don't work for hospitals, they work for teaching institutions. So the question is how does their pay compare to other instructors at those institutions (taking into account if the instructors are bachelor, masters, or doctorate prepared). As many have pointed out even if we could magically get every applicant into a nursing program then there would still be a bottleneck in finding clinical space for these students.

So again: Where will the money come from?! Please don't start with CEO wages and all of that. I don't like CEOs earning crazy amounts of money, but even if they worked for free how much money would that put back into the system?
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No. 36
Old Oct 29, 2008, 12:41 PM

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
Originally Posted by ivanh3 View Post
Uhh, Sir,
... You should be careful when say things "vast majority". I have posted on this before.
Fine, so you are not part of the majority of nurses. Patriotic Americans who advocate for the working American nurse are hardly xenophobes but I understand the straw man argument as desperation. Also the bill is dead and thanks for your input.
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No. 37
from ivanh3
Old Oct 29, 2008, 01:09 PM

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
Originally Posted by HoosierMale View Post
Our patients must not forced to be cared for by Visa holders ill-familiar with the culture or language who carry questionable credentials and taking a honorable job which should be available to our own
Originally Posted by HoosierMale View Post
The answer is not to place patients at risk and alienate them from their caregivers.

The answer is not to bring in foreign nurses which threaten patient care, morale and our health care system.
Originally Posted by HoosierMale View Post
Fine, so you are not part of the majority of nurses. Patriotic Americans who advocate for the working American nurse are hardly xenophobes but I understand the straw man argument as desperation. Also the bill is dead and thanks for your input.
Good thing you are not a xenophobe. I am sure you have peer reviewed studies and facts that are solid and evidence based to back up your opinions. So when confronted with this you bring up patriotism. Seems like I have seen that tactic somewhere before. I am a nurse, paramedic, former police officer, and veteran. I have spent almost my whole career in public safety/service, and I am all about the working nurse. If your beliefs are part of the "vast majority" of nursing then we are in trouble.
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No. 38
Old Oct 29, 2008, 01:20 PM
Updated Oct 29, 2008 at 01:47 PM by HoosierMale

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
Originally Posted by ivanh3 View Post
... I am ...I am...I am ...I am
3 in one post. Let me count again, no (update...no 4!). Well chill out Mr " I Am", many of the nurses here who i have personally met have dedicated their lives to public service and do not need to blow their own horns.
As previously stated, the bill is dead and thanks for your opinion.
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No. 39
Old Nov 01, 2008, 01:58 PM

Default Re: Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, HR 5924
Originally Posted by ivanh3 View Post
I have worked with, trained with, struggled with, many foreign trained nurses and found them to be excellent, and I would have NO problems whatsoever with them taking care of me or my family.
I have also worked with many, many foreign trained nurses and U.S trained staff, and have found great differences in their skill levels and attitudes -this is only my opinion:

...th..st section of Country A: nurses are less skilled. They are also much more timid in their nursing, and this is a determent when aggression is needed. I have found them to be poor patient advocates due to this lack of aggression.

...th..st section of Country B: nurses have a lackadaisical approach toward nursing. If it gets done or doesn't ... makes no difference.

...th..st portion of Country C: nurses have a greater propensity towards... for lack of a better word, irritation. I have followed many from this section of Country C who have not advocated for their pt's pain control. A nurse friend from Country C explained that complaining of pain is considered "whining" in her area of the country, and she has actually had to consciously change her attitude toward pain control.

...th..st portion of Country D: I have followed more than a few from this area, and regretted even taking report. These nurses prefer sitting to working.

...th..st area of Country E: less team motivated. They are more self assured- disregarding other staff or even the patient. Two heads are not better than one, in their opinion.

We have to acknowledge that there are important differences in nursing from different parts of different countries, including the U.S.
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