ANA membership - page 3

I would like your input and opinions. What do you think about membership in the ANA? Advantages? Disadvantages?:confused:... Read More

  1. by   wildtime88
    WashYaHands,

    I would like to thank you personally for answering my questions. You answered them directly and respectfully.

    I was honestly trying to find out if there was a way for the average nurse to effect speedy change with in the ANA. Silly me, I was actually thinking about joining the organization if this could be done. I wanted to see just how much power the average nurse could actually use to make the changes.

    According to JT, there is nothing wrong with the ANA or it's direction. I guess that is why so many nurses choose not to join and I guess that is why 3 state nursing associations have chosen to cut ties with the ANA. Two of them severed ties this year alone.

    Thanks to JT, I realized that I do not need to pay to belong to an association that in my mind is made up of a lot of JTs to go through her type of abuse. I can get that here for free.

    I have seen to many organizations which were staffed with people who refused to acknowledge that there was anything wrong and would fight not to change or relinquish power. I have worked for many in the form of hospitals. Since it is my choice to join an organization or union made up of JT types, then I choose not to.
    I for one would like to see real change and not just follow the company line. Jt, I am not going to argue with you personally about any of this anymore. I have come to realize that you are the best anti-ANA and anti-union thing going. If you only knew how many people you have caused to turn away.
    Last edit by wildtime88 on Dec 23, '01
  2. by   nurs4kids
    Originally posted by WashYaHands

    I have never called anyone or insinuated that anyone was ignorant in any topic that is discussed on this web site. Debate is one thing, name calling and personal attacks are another. My contribution to this thread is over.

    Linda
    wash,
    I wasn't talking about you. I really appreciate your taking the time to answer wild's questions. It's the fact that wildtime has been answered sarcastically when asking innocent questions that has turned me and others against the ANA. JT speaks as if she's THE ANA, and if her attitude is symbolic of the ANA, then the average nurse is treated as an idiot if they ask questions. Again, thank you for your sincere attempt to answer questions. I'm sorry you're misled and telling pbrn that she will be chastised by fellow nurses for her choice to join; I don't think that's true. There are many ANA members here who I feel are wonderful people. Everyone has the right to join or not to join. I, like wild, also feel everyone has a right to ask questions and have them answered with straight-forward, sincere answers; devoid of sarcasm and without being called ignorant. I'm not anti or pro ANA/Union, I've yet to decide. BUT when I keep being told those two are perfect, are the ONLY way, I become skeptical. There is no absolute in life, and there damn sure isn't in nursing. Sorry you were offended.

    pbrn,
    My advice to you would be talk with coworkers, old and new. Speak with ANA members, and non-members. Speak with older nurses who were members but are no longer. Ask questions relating to how it would benefit you and the type nursing you do. Search the ANA's website and the media articles for information on the ANA. Then determine if the ANA is for you, is what you want to put your money into. Just look for objective information, and always consider the source. I don't remember where you're from, but I know the ANA is much more active in some states than in others. So, this is something else to consider. Just don't do what nursing has done for years and "follow the leader, blindly", educate yourself and THEN make an educated decision that benefits YOU. If you see where joining would benefit YOU, then by all means join. It's time for nurses to educate themselves and make decisions that benefit self. The info on this bb is opinions, and little more. What benefits one person does not benefit the other. So, take what you see here with a grain of salt , educate yourself and do what's best for pbrn. Good luck in your decision, I hope yours is easier than mine!

    The following was added 1-7-02:
    ***please note***
    After researching the ANA's activities myself, rather than accept other's opinions, I changed my stand. Please view this thread with a grain of salt and do your own research on the ANA before reaching a decision.
    Last edit by nurs4kids on Jan 7, '02
  3. by   cmggriff
    I voted in the last general election.
    I did not vote for the tax cut.
    I have not voted regarding the annual compensation of any of my elected officials.
    However, I do not intend to renounce my US citizenship and I anticipate voting again in the future. I do exercise my right to free speech on many occaisions. Often I publicly criticise those I voted for and helped elect.
    I belong to the ONA and therefore the ANA. I voted on the recently negotiated contract where I work, and I support the OHSU nurses. I enjoy reading what wildtime88 has to say because it often causes me to clarify my own views to myself. I am totally unconcerned at how petty, opinionated or uninformed anyone else might appear. I'm just here to have fun. Gary
  4. by   Mijourney
    Thank goodness, Christmas is ready and I can rest now. Hi Gary. What's the new-fangled saying, you rock with your post!

    I do agree that for anyone that is concerned about the philosophy and goals of an organization, he/she should examine the organization through various forms of research before they join. I don't know of any organization, including the family, where there is 100% agreement on every issue.

    First you need to decide why you want to join the ANA just like why you want to be a nurse. Once you define that, then you compare the pros and cons.
  5. by   nurs4kids
    "There are many ANA members here who I feel are wonderful people. "

    Gary and Mjourney are exactly the type ANA member I admire. It doesn't seem either is threatened by questions, and definitely do not remove the focus from the issue by starting personal attacks against those who don't agree.

    Gary, I agree with Mjourney, your above post DOES rock...made me think a little

    The following was added 1-7-02:
    ***please note***
    After researching the ANA's activities myself, rather than accept other's opinions, I changed my stand. Please view this thread with a grain of salt and do your own research on the ANA before reaching a decision.
    Last edit by nurs4kids on Jan 7, '02
  6. by   nightingale
    Thank you all for the debate and for making me think about issues from a different perspective. I do not have to agree with the decisions others make to understand its importance.

    Each of us is fortunate to be able to express our opinions on this BB. The derogatory remarks made might make for some brief merriment but truly only serve to minimize the weight of the argument (for the mud slinger).

    WashyerHands.... thank you for taking the time to post to this valuable debate. You are worth listening to again and again. I look forward to reading more of your posts on this topic.

    Wild... I get where you are coming from.... I hope I can sift through the muck and figure out what I can learn from you..... I have a hard timing reading your sarcasm and respecting what you are attempting to add to the debate.

    Gary... you ROCK.....

    B.
    Last edit by nightingale on Dec 25, '01
  7. by   wildtime88
    If you can detect the sarcasm then your journey is on the right path. I am not going to try not to tell nurses what and how to think or even how to act. That has been going on for far too long. I just want to see nurses to start thinking for themselves for once. I want nurses to explore the many possibilities as well as the consequences. Consequences can be both bad and good. Taking an inappropriate action can be just as bad as taking no action at all. In the same light taking no action or delaying a specific action can also result in a favorable as well as beneficial consequence.
    Sarcasm can be a very effective tool to get people to think. Strong inner emotions can also be an effective tool and triggering the thought process. Strong emotions can also force us to look deeply into our own makeup, experiences, values, beliefs, and actions as a form of self-examination.

    I have taken the same journey many times and have discovered a lot about myself that I would have flatly denied in the past. For example, I am as much to blame as any other nurse for the state of nursing today. I was just as quick to follow the crowd as anyone else. I did not actively protest when ancillary staff and support staff was being cut. I picked up the additional patient one at a time when nurses where let go through attrition. I continued to work without protest while salaries became stagnant. At one time I was a member of the ANA and paid my dues simply because it was the expected thing to do as nursing professional. I too sat back and watched the world of nursing go by and get worse and worse, because I figured that someone else knew how to handle things a whole lot better. Besides that is what I was paying my dues for in the first place. Then one day I realized that I had never done this before and would never allow it in my personal life. I opened my eyes and realized that things were not right. I saw a very good nurse leave the profession to become a ultrasound tech. She now makes more money than she did. She does not have the headaches. She does not belong to a union, yet she receives better treatment without having to worry about lawsuits or loosing her license. This caused me to start looking around at all the other positions in the hospital and I quickly realized that there are many other positions with less education when it all boils down to it that are also do far better. The kicker was when I realized that many of these jobs are designated to nurses in one form or the other on the weekends or at nights or to fill their shortages.

    The biggest thing that I realized by doing self-examination is that I was part of the problem when it came to the nursing profession. I could not blame anyone else for my previous action or lack of actions or my attitude. It was a decision I personally made and the path I chose to follow. I chose to follow then to follow the crowd no mater what direction it led. I chose to financially support the nursing leadership in whatever direction or decisions they made. I chose to compromise with nurse educators, advance practice nurses, nurse administrators, and politically career focused nurses. It was all my fault and no one else's. That is when I decided that it was time to actually examine what was really going on.

    I have asked many questions about topics that were once considered taboo to discuss and some still are. Another way of putting it is that of not being politically correct. I have gotten a lot of strong emotions directed at me for daring to ask many of these questions. I have gotten my strong emotions directed at me for daring to challenge the status quo, but along the way I have also witnessed many light bulbs turn on in the minds of many nurses. Many were the ones that went the furthest in telling me how wrong I was originally and in words that were not close to being kind. I do not think that anyone who has read much of what I have written could honestly say that I am not pro nursing. I just believe that the true strength and power in nursing lies in the mostly untapped majority within nursing. This is the backbone of nursing and it is the nurses at the bedside.

    I also believe that with better focus on a logical and well thought out systematic plan with better leadership that many nurses would join in instead of choosing to leave. I also believe that all nurses should benefit as a result including LPNs, nurse managers, and directors of nursing, as well as nursing assistants. Nursing in general has been taken advantage of for far too long. This is a dream, but wouldn't it be nice if nurses actually had complete control of the nursing profession instead of having to follow everyone else's rules, mandates, instructions, and directions when it came to nursing practice? Right now we have the leverage to make those changes due to the nursing shortage. Nursing has been at this exact same spot many times in the past. And every time nursing has been here in the past there has been legislation passed to in one way or the other to flood the new nurses into the profession. Now somebody is going to get mad at me for the fact that in every case the ANA has supported this same type of legislation. Instead of improving things by leap and bonds progress has been at a snail's pace. Isn't time that someone realizes that this is not the most effective way to handle this reoccurring opportunity and situation? There is one group of nurses who have realized this and broke away a few years back from the ANA and have made great strides. These are the nurses in California both non-union and union nurses alike. And they are relatively new at this when you compare them to the only the years the ANA has been existence.
    As a side note you have not read the entire nurse reinvestment and education legislation being pushed by the ANA then I would encourage you to. The first 3 or 5 paragraphs can be misleading, did you know that the way the legislation is written that this could quickly become a social aide reform project in which many women will be strongly coerce into taking part in no mater what? Did you also know the way it is written that it paves the way to the reopening of hospital based diploma nursing programs and will actually pay all the expense for them?

    I have no problem with a social aide reform project in it's self but I can see how strong arming women to join the profession might actually be a worse problem in the long run.

    I am also a diploma grad and I have no problem saying that I received one hell of an education. My school educated us on a BSN level by requiring a massive amount of college perquisite classed and then continued with advance theory and education after that and not just the basic nuts and bolts of nursing clinicals. I went a full time for 4.5 years from start to finish between college and nursing school without a break to reach the point of graduation.

    So this legislation has everything in place to push out a mass number of new nurses who might not even want to be a nurse in the first place. And if they falter, change their minds, or just refuse to continue they will have a financial penalty to pay back all the cost of what they had received. This also includes childcare as well as an additional monthly allowance. Now I have to ask if you were in this spot what would you do it you realized part of the way through that you did not really want to do it? What kind of attitude would you have in the end?

    Now I realize that there will be women who this will be dream come true for and will a blessing for? But I know as well as you that we all suffered or fought in one way or the other to get here ourselves. So if this is something that some one really wanted to do they would have found a way in most of the cases.

    Please do not take my word for this, go and look at the actually legislation as it is written and not how it is posted on someone's web site. Study the language that is actually used and not an interpretation. Pay close attention to all of it and especially at the parts where the words "greatest or most need", "diploma", and 'reimbursement" or it's synonym is used. Then take the time to actually think about it for yourself as well as all of its possible consequences. Just do so quickly, because the time to act against it is running out if you happen to find yourself on the nay side of this.


    I truly hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas and that Santa was good to all.
  8. by   cmggriff
    Awww, you guys say the nicest things. I'm blushing here. Merry Chritmas to all and to all a good night. Gary
  9. by   nightingale
    Wild:

    I will read over the legislation and give it some additional scrutiny based on your remarks. I do apreciate your thought filled statements and the encouragments to ponder the legislation.

    Merry Christmas, Bountiful New Year, and Peace to ALL

    Bonnie
  10. by   -jt
    <JT speaks as if she's THE ANA,>

    That comment just shows that you still dont get it.

    The point that you will not see is:

    I AM the ANA - just as every other member is.

    Who do you think is on the panels to write those legislations, and make those initiatives, lobby the legislators, do the research, decide the course, etc, etc, etc? Its the members - the majority of whom are direct-care (bedside) nurses. We are the ANA. Thats what we've been telling you for how long now? You keep talking about the ANA as some faceless entity & we keep telling you it is us nurses & we are the ones doing that work.

    My posts have been informative - based on facts, not opinion- and aimed at correcting misinformation & misconceptions with those actual facts but have been met time & time & time again (as have those of others) with the "maturity" of derogatory remarks, sarcasm, innuendo, assumptions, accusations, & outright insults from certain persons here, who prefer to ram their own opinions down everyones throats and assault anyone who disagrees with them, so much so that they have driven posters off this board. When finally called out on it, they start screaming themselves about being "personally attacked" - a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black there.

    Some people just cant handle when the facts show they are wrong and they feel the need to degenerate the discussion to the level it has been here when the facts oppose their personal opinion. But heres another fact to correct another posted inaccuracy:

    FYI - California nurses did not kick the ANA out of their state or their state association. There is still a California state nurses association within the ANA - just as there is still a Massachusetts/Maine state nurses association within the ANA and all of them have RN members from every facet of the profession.

    With a vote not by the majority of all the members of those associations, but by only the members who showed up to vote on it (only about 10% of the entire membership), just one section of those 2 associations - their union branch - broke away from the ANA to form their own collective bargaining organization of direct care RNs and other healthcare providers and to affiliate with the Steelworkers union. The other parts of those 2 associations chose to remain affiliated with the national professional organization for nurses - the ANA.

    And all the other state association's union branches chose to remain affiliated with the national professional nurses organization - the ANA - the nations largest, most recognized RN organization - & establish a new national nurses labor union affiliated with it - the UAN - as their collective bargaining organization for direct-care RNs only. There are still 54 state associations within the ANA - one from every state and the US territories - including CA & MA/ME. And still over 120,000 direct care RN labor union members in the UAN - the largest RN union in the country.

    Its your choice to keep yourself excluded from that just as its others choice to be part of it. How interesting that some here who have chosen to exclude themselves from it while constantly putting down those who make the choice to be a part of it, will demand that a certain level of courtesy be given to themselves, yet at the same time, will feel free to rabidly find fault with anyone who opposes their personal opinion with actual fact. Makes one wonder.

    Merry Christmas to all
    Last edit by -jt on Dec 26, '01
  11. by   wildtime88
    JT, now let's be factual about this. The original state associations in question voted as a majority to cut ties with the ANA. Then the minority of the nurses who did not vote to cut ties then set up ANA associations as a result.

    Jt, we know you are the ANA. That is why you have turned so many people away from it. You are representative of what a lot of nurses do not want a part of. You are unyielding in the belief that the ANA and the union is perfect and should not be questioned.

    As for unions you can not see how drawing battle lines between nurses is actually a hinderance. On one hand you battle against the same nurses you pay to belong with on the other hand.
    Last edit by wildtime88 on Dec 26, '01
  12. by   -jt
    <You are unyielding in the belief that the ANA and the union is perfect and should not be questioned.>


    You just proved my point made in the previous post and also, once again, you have attributed to me something I never said. I did however say (as have others) that we, the members, debate on the course to be taken & we, the members, vote on the decisions to be made. You have already been told that when we think something should be questioned in our organization, we bring it up & it is questioned & when something should be changed, WE change it. Just as we have changed the leadership for one that is more geared to the majority of the membership which are direct-care RNs, established a new affiliated national RN labor union to better address the needs of direct-care RNs, and focused more on correcting workplace issues over the last 3 yrs.

    I am only unyielding in correcting the factless misconceptions & inaccuracies that you perpetually post about my organziation which you are not even involved in and have knowledge of only from your own speculations, interpretations, and opinions.

    I am so honored that you think I have such control and power over the actions of others who stop by to read this board. What can be said about people who would make their decisions based solely on a post they read on the internet? I suppose that, for some, any excuse is better than none.

    To each his own.

    Enjoy your holiday.
    Last edit by -jt on Dec 26, '01
  13. by   nightingale
    joined last week via internet website... faxed over my automatic draft last week... I am proud to be one of those who participate.

    B.

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