Should BSN be required entry level for practicing nurses? - page 3

I am very interested in this subject, and also curious how NP's will reply. The answer in my own mind is clear. Should the nursing shortage be a factor in making a decision such as this? What do... Read More

  1. by   NurseAngie
    originally posted by rnconnief
    angie,
    stick with us, we getting better and better and we need new voices like yours to remind us where we need to go to make nursing better for nurses, not just patients.

    thank you for your post!

    ~angie <--- not condescending
  2. by   Sleepyeyes
    I too feel that the BSN should be the entry level into nursing. I read an editorial recently (written by a FNP with a MNSc)stating that the problems with nursing can be traced back to one underlying factor, which is the nursing "profession" has not remained steadfast in their conviction to abolish diploma and ADN programs. As a result, nursing continues to believe it is a profession when in actuality, it is nothing more than a dead-end "vocational" job. Consequently, nursing will never attract the best and the brighest, but instead settle for "junior college material" or "grade 13 grads".

    Just my .02 (and forgive me if I sound blunter than usual; I just woke up):
    The diploma programs were abolished because they encouraged "slave labor" at the hospitals, sacrificing theory. The ADN programs' advantage -- and partly why I chose an ADN program -- is that they have more clinical time than a BSN, and includes all the applicable theory you'll really ever need.
    Therefore, the BSN, IMHO, is the one that's useless. You'll never get your investment back unless you go into management. You'll come out on the floor with less clinical ability than the average CNA. You won't have the "clinical instincts" of a lab rat.
    By the way, having already had a lot of college before I started my BSN, I'm about 4 courses away from my BSN, but frankly, why bother? The further one steps from hands-on, direct patient care, the further one goes from the spirit of "real" nursing.
    I know lots of nurses who have their BSN or Masters, and their degrees don't get them more earning power--their experience does.
    Last edit by Sleepyeyes on Jul 14, '02
  3. by   OzNurse69
    I've been reading and participating on this forum for a few years now, and I still don't get the way you guys become RN's. It's way too confusing. In Australia, we have Personal Care Attendants/Assistants in Nursing (unqualified, usually 6 - 8 week course), Enrolled Nurses (18 months at a TAFE college) and Registered Nurses (3 years at University). There are universities in every capital city, most large regional towns, and if you happen to be unlucky (or lucky, depending on your point of view) enough to live more than an hour away from your local uni, YOU MOVE!! RN's who were registered when the new program came in were grandfathered in with no loss of status or remuneration, and we don't have free university over here, either. We have a national accreditation body for uni nursing degrees, and reciprocal rights to practice in every other state, all you have to do is pay another registration fee ($50 to $100 AU = $25 to $50 US). I'm not saying it's perfect, and we have the same problems here with lack of respect from doctors, insufficient nurse numbers, etc. BUT, at least we don't suffer from the same "flogging a dead horse" routine that I see so frequently on this forum.
    All other health professionals (OT, PT, Speech path, etc.) go throught a degree program to gain their qualifications. Why not make it across the board?
  4. by   mark_LD_RN
    nurseangie if you wanted to know what program it was all you had to do is ask. sorry if i took it the wrong way.

    as far as why i teach at a ADN program.I love to work with and teach the students i encourage them to go on and further thier education. I think at this point in time the adn is an acceptable starting point but one should go on. the original purpose of the adn program was to get people into nursing and bridge them over to the BSN programs. The movement to make BSN the entry level started in 1965 in response to a nursing shortage.

    I teach partime at the ADN program and am an adjunct clinical instructor at local BSN program.
  5. by   ageless
    Therefore, the BSN, IMHO, is the one that's useless. You'll never get your investment back unless you go into management. You'll come out on the floor with less clinical ability than the average CNA. You won't have the "clinical instincts" of a lab rat.

    You sound very angry and to top that, you have slandered your peers. These type of comments make us all look petty and childish to the medical community

    I would also like to say that your humble opinion is inaccurate and too global. To say that a BSN has no clinical skills is inflammatory. It is perfectly acceptable to be a BSN, diploma, or ADN. It is a pity that you have chosen to attack rather than support your position. After you become a more seasoned RN, perhaps your narrow view will broaden.

    I have a BSN and was given as many or more clinical hours as any ADN program in my area. Yes, I checked this out before entering a BSN many years ago and nothing has changed in recent years.

    It is my opinion that nursing respect and salary will not improve until the BSN becomes the standard throughout the USA. Our co-workers in OT, PT, etc. have a BS and we need to join in that requirement. If nursing is to be valued of by others as the profession we know it to be, it needs to move away from the technical colleges and progress to a university foundation. In the meantime, RNs need to join ranks with each other in solidarity.

    Despite your opinion of my degree. this BSN RN will work beside you, support and defend you, honor and encourage you, You might even find out we can pool our resources for the benefit of our patient.
    Last edit by ageless on Jul 15, '02
  6. by   slinkeecat
    you know, this kinda crap pisses me off. I do not owe anyone a damned explaination for my personal choice to go for my BSN, I have been a nurse for many many moons as an LPN... I am proud of who I am and do not give a sh@$ for anyone who keeps downing this profession. I want to be a nurse despite of all the crap that goes with it because there are many great things that balance it out. BSn made more sense to me because it is basically the same amount of time for me in this bridge program as it would take for an ADN. I feel that it is rediculous to say that one is better than the other.... after all is said and done both programs do not make you an RN...... you have to take the same freaking BOARD exam..... If you do not like nursing than get out of the prefession... I have told this to many doctors who get pissed when I have called them @ 3 am in regards to their patient.....
    "If you don't like this, then perhaps you should consider flipping hamburgers @ BurgerKing for a living....."

    This is not a personal attack to any one in particular .... just an venting moment for me!!!!!!!
  7. by   RNIAM
    Wow, when will all of this end. I plan to take the two year route. if I need to explain why then I will. Because financially it makes sense. In two years I can be working and then i will go on and get my BSN not because I think I will be better but because for me it is the right thing to do. If their are two year nurses who want to remain two year nurse,who cares? I think at this point in time that noone should cut their nose off to spite their face. We need everyone we have. LPN's, RN's BSN's etc If your a good nurse your needed, heck from what I've seen even the bad nusres have a job right now. Support each other that is what makes nursing a proffession, not the letter behind the name.
  8. by   ageless
    We need everyone we have. LPN's, RN's BSN's etc If your a good nurse your needed
    AMEN to that!!!
  9. by   NurseAngie
    Originally posted by mark_LD_RN
    nurseangie if you wanted to know what program it was all you had to do is ask. sorry if i took it the wrong way.

    as far as why i teach at a ADN program.I love to work with and teach the students i encourage them to go on and further thier education. I think at this point in time the adn is an acceptable starting point but one should go on. the original purpose of the adn program was to get people into nursing and bridge them over to the BSN programs. The movement to make BSN the entry level started in 1965 in response to a nursing shortage.

    I teach partime at the ADN program and am an adjunct clinical instructor at local BSN program.
    I'm sorry Mark. I should have just typed it all out ( I try to be brief in my posts...I apologize.) so you would know what I was trying to say (actually ask...that's why I used the? in my post). Anyway, I agree with you that ADN is acceptable and I am for everyone getting the most education that they can so that they may live their lives to the fullest! (That doesn't necessary mean an academic education...I've learned so much about myself and the world since I got to live in Europe for a little while.) Take care.

    :kiss Ang
  10. by   mark_LD_RN
    i guess that happens when two people try to make posts short,. apology accepted
  11. by   mark_LD_RN
    sleepy eyes you need to get some rest and get up on the right side of the bed,. you seem very hostile to BSN. I beg to differ with you but BSN have more skills than a lab rat. Our program required more clinican time than any of the local adn programs did by far. This a a falicy that has been promoted and perpetuated by many ADN programs. for a program to get and keep its accreditation it needs to meet the standards set for clinical contact ours per class room hours. BSN requires more class room ours and thus more clinical time. One example is the preceptorship requirement the two BSN programs here require 160 and 200 hours, the 2 adn programs require 40 and 60 hours this is just one example.
    we need to have open minds and support our coworkers and encourage them to increase their knowledge, through formal education,self study, inservices,seminars or what ever we can. If nursing will continue to fall to the wayside and not get the respect it deserves. this topic needs to be looked at in a logical factual manner not emotional or oppinionated manner.

    lets all work together to improve nursing. Any ideas?
  12. by   Sleepyeyes
    Originally posted by mark_LD_RN
    sleepy eyes you need to get some rest and get up on the right side of the bed,. you seem very hostile to BSN. I beg to differ with you but BSN have more skills than a lab rat. Our program required more clinican time than any of the local adn programs did by far. This a a falicy that has been promoted and perpetuated by many ADN programs. for a program to get and keep its accreditation it needs to meet the standards set for clinical contact ours per class room hours. BSN requires more class room ours and thus more clinical time. One example is the preceptorship requirement the two BSN programs here require 160 and 200 hours, the 2 adn programs require 40 and 60 hours this is just one example.
    we need to have open minds and support our coworkers and encourage them to increase their knowledge, through formal education,self study, inservices,seminars or what ever we can. If nursing will continue to fall to the wayside and not get the respect it deserves. this topic needs to be looked at in a logical factual manner not emotional or oppinionated manner.

    lets all work together to improve nursing. Any ideas?
    Not hostile to BSN grads, only to posters who insult my intelligence by labelling me a "grade 13 grad," insinuate that I am not one of "the best and the brightest," or that I am "junior college material," and who imply that because I went through an ADN program, that I'm inferior as a nurse or a person. Please re-read my post and the letter that I was answering.

    In this part of the country, the BSN nurses have less than half of the clinical time of the ADN nurses by the time they graduate.

    If we worked side-by-side, unless you asked and unless I told you, you really wouldn't know that I had an ADN and I wouldn't give a hoot'n'holler if you had a BSN. Unless you insult me.

    But elitism reared its ugly head when you immediately jumped to the defense of the BSN program, but all the nasty comments about the ADN program nurses were left to stand, making me wonder if you had actually read all the previous posts and the quote that I was responding to.

    So tell me this: if a kid does four years of high school and graduates, does that make him more of a high-school graduate than the kid who was so smart that he skipped a year? An ADN is simply a more accelerated program and the same stuff is learned; otherwise we'd have different RN boards to pass.

    Maybe that is why the ADN programs haven't been phased out.
  13. by   mark_LD_RN
    sleepyeyes you are way of base here. I never insulted adn's and yes i have read most of the posts. I was adressing your comment about having the skills of a lab rat. I have said many times that nurses need to work together and have defended posts by adns.

    put You are way out of line with adn being an accelerated program, it meets the minimun requirements of theory and clinical time. yes programs do vary for place to place, but if they are accreditied they must meet the minimun standards. this is not the same as a smart high schooler testing out of a grade. I hope you get what i am saying this is not meant as an insult just stating facts.

    the poster that wrote adn's are grade 13 material or what ever her exact statement was , was also out of line, there is no need to insult each other.

    I still stick to my opinion that BSN should be the entry level but not because it means they are better nurses. just that it would improve our image, nursing has become to techincal and advanced not to increase our requiements. all other areas of the medical profession have increased their mimnimal standards why should nursing be left behind. i feel nursing is not appealing to many people and yes a lot of the best and brightest don,t consider nursing, because of its image, it is often considered a vocation not a profession. and lastly we are underpaid.

    you will have to forgive me for jumping to the defense of the BSN as you said. If It were not for the constant falicy being promoted that we have no clinical skills, only management, all we do is belittle the ADN. well you need to work near me, the ADN constantly put down and insult the BSN here, as a matter of fact I never let any one know i had a BSN until I started teaching. to let them know you have one is like painting a bulls eye on your back. it is a shame one can not be proud of their accomplishments.just to keep the peace. as you said if you were to work next to me i can promise you , you would not see any lack of skill on my part.

    this is a subject that needs to be looked at logically, if you allow emotions to be involved and if we insult each other it will never be resolved. current research supports my belief that the BSN should be the entry level. some even suggest that masters level be entry level. research it for your self and see.

    I do agree with an earlier poster that stated access is the key. but their is no reason with all the online bridge programs available today that we cannot go on to At least the BSN level. the ADN was originally set up to be a bridge program towards the BSN entry level. the moment just stalled out and it is mostly related to money issues.

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