MD, DO, NP, DC, OD -- Who deserves the title Physician? - page 3

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  1. by   Frozen08
    Chiros: are quacks. They believe every illness has to do with obscure spinal problems that only they can see.....NOT PHYSICIANS (IN fact in my state it is against the law for them to call themselves such).

    Opt: NOT PHYSICIANS. They are essentially an Ophthalmo mid level provider.

    NPs/DNP: NOT PHYSICIANS. Wonderful providers within the right setting, but you vastly lack the knowledge base of a MD/DO. Not because you not as intelligent, but because your education has been fundamentally different from a physician's from the first day you steped foot into a college.

    MD's/DO's : Physicans. Experts in the subject of physiology.
  2. by   migster
    Wowza.
    It is obvious that you are informed with only half the story. If you are truly interested in the truth, I ask you to read my response, take a breath and think about it, not just fire off an angry response.

    How many patients have I admitted: NONE, and if you read my original post you will see that I never stated that I had, that is not my job. How many brain surgeries have you performed, NASA launches? It doesn't mean that you’re not competent at what you do, it's just not in your job description.

    Yes, I can read an EKG, can you read X-rays/MRI? Yes I can perform a pelvic exam (depends on state) but I certainly would never because I leave that to those who are experts in the area. I also draw and interpret labs, perform examinations (real honest to goodness physical exams with a stethoscope and everything…..sarcasm intended) and refer out when appropriate (hmmm doesn’t that sound like your garden variety GP).

    Would I tell an MD that I am a physician, NO because in order for that to come up in conversation it would have to be in an argumentative setting; I work hand in hand with the MD not in an adversarial way. Many MD's refer their patients to my office. I have several surgeons, GPs, specialists, dentists and over 30 nurses as my patients. So unlike you who obviously believes that there is some great war, we work together, everyone knows their role, everyone respects each other’s opinion.

    I am an honest person and never attacked in my original post, nor did I downgrade anyone; in fact, I believe that I praised nurses. This makes me ponder your hostility. I also must protest that you called me a liar when you’ve never met me; when I say hundreds, I mean hundreds.

    I will agree that many chiropractors, although trained, do not practice as physicians because they do have tunnel vision and only see what they want to see without looking at the big picture. I however am not one of them and do assess all aspects of my patients as it pertains to their history, symptomology, and objective finding (orthopedic and neurological exams); I know many MDs with tunnel vision myself and I’m certain if you are honest, you do too.
    Why did I bump a 3 year old thread? I was doing some research for one of my Nurse Practitioners and was looking for a nursing perspective…does that sound like someone who is one sided to you.
    Look, I’m not going to go back and forth with you as obviously you have your mind set, but I will tell you that I own several very reputable medical facilities and I have an objective vantage from both sides. It’s not about drawing a line in the sand with me, it’s about the truth. My job is to be the front line, if it’s a musculoskeletal condition, I’ll treat it, if it’s a condition that warrants referral, I refer. The only difference is the scope of our modalities and each has his/her place. I’ve unfortunately found cancer on several patients when their medical doctors had not bothered to investigate radiologically and had been treated with NSAIDS for months and in one case almost a year; I can’t believe that whatever your prejudices may be that your don’t believe that is a medical diagnosis and not simply a chiropractic one.
    I wish you luck
  3. by   migster
    Browndog,

    I'm sorry that you've never met a chiro that has "cured" anyone. If I ask you a question, will you stop, think and answer honestly. How many chronic headache patients have medical doctors cured? Or do they treat for a lifetime as you said about chiropractors (just with a different modality). They treat with drug therapy and usually this is way more frequent (several times a day) than a chiro would treat with manipulation therapy. How many blood pressure patients are truly cured of their high blood pressure by the medical profession (remember, I own medical clinics and see the scripts going out all day long) None, they treat for a lifetime with a different modality.
    I think if you really looked in the average personals medicine chest, you would agree that there’s a lot more medical treatment going on per capita than chiropractic care (If I could put an adjustment in a pill I would). It is completely unfair to say that every morning when grandma takes her pills that she’ not being treated….by definition she absolutely is. Taking a pill is certainly more convenient that going into an office, but no less of a treatment. That being said if you’re being treated by a chiropractor for 30 visits in 3 months and your migraines are almost completely gone, the chiro treated you 30 times and got the desired result. If you are under medical care for the same diagnosis and taking several pills, several times a day indefinitely, you are being treated thousands of times for the same condition with no end in site…..please don’t insinuate that chiros over treat without considering the other side.

    As for those on your radio show, I have not heard them so I cannot comment. I do believe that the medical profession has a tendency to over prescribe, but I also agree with you that some of those chiros go off the deep end and embarrass the rest of us.
    As I responded to wowza, I’m not looking for a fight. I have a direct interest in both sides, I just ask that other who do not have the privilege of seeing both views investigate.
    Regarding the title physician, again, I'm not hung up on it so I don't care....I care about helping people.

    Yours in health
  4. by   jk440
    How can you, as a group of healthcare providers, be taken seriously with proposals such as this one when you use tactics such as BASHING other healthcare fields. Is this a complete joke? Your description of what optometrists do is absolutely disgusting and pedantic. Perhaps that's why no one wants to take you guys seriously.

    What will the title of physician get you? More money that you probably think you deserve? No. More rights that you think you deserve? No. Will it actually get you more respect? Perhaps, but only because people will confuse you with actual physicians. This desire is nothing more than a group of mid-level providers trying to stroke their own ego.
  5. by   BS, NP
    Quote from mav80
    2.5 gpa, 65 college credit hours? Those are the bare minimum requirements any prospective optometry student need to even be considered for admission. The average gpa to get into optometry school is a 3.3 (same gpa to get into DO school) with a 330 out of 400 on their entrance exam (almost the same test pre-dental students take). Nearly 90% of all optometry students have a 4 year degree or higher. You are looking at 8 years of college to become an optometrist.

    I don't think you should downplay any profession's educational requirements. The title physician is granted so managed care plans would reimburse optometrists for their services. To me...the only real physicians are MD/DO/DPM.
    I believe I am pretty much in agreement with you....wow....there are some well-informed folks on here.....yeah...no one should be downplaying another profession......that doesn't help.....I think it is truly a semantic debate here.......who should be called physicians?? well, if we're arguing for rights as advanced practice nurses why would we WANT to be called a physician....we have to be careful what we are asking for here....it is becoming a slippery slope.....we may lose the support of those who are well established and on our sides....we are NOT physicians......let the non allopathic and osteopathic practitioners of optometry and chiropractic have the title I suppose....traditionally they always have.....fighting for the same or similar RIGHTS is a different story....

    I've been giving it alot of thought and really trying to see the big picture......people are getting so hung up on titles and credentials and wording and program curricula......

    I think the definition on this site sums it up well........ A Nurse Practitioner (NP) is a registered nurse with advanced academic and clinical experience in diagnosing and managing most common acute and chronic illnesses either independently or in collaboration with a physician.

    we just want to do what we are doing and be who we are and be rightfully recognized and legitimized for it, no???

    no we don't have the same training as physicians.....could we safely take on the primary care needs of the population.......sure.....I think we could.....but.....aren't we pretty much doing that now.....as it is....???? won't we still call on our physician and NP and PA colleagues for insight and expertise and experience when ours falls short.....???? yes...I think we will.......

    I guess I kind of enjoy basically being independent and still legal having an attachment to a physician who in many cases knows more than I do......

    I've heard some folks make a few decent arguments as to why dissolve collaborative practice agreements is a good and/or founded thing......such as: a rightful move based on our experience and quality and scope of practice; would free up care for those who have independent clinics should something happen to their physician supervisor (death or move or stop practicing)

    can anyone else offer other reasons for why this move is so necessary or deserved....???? thanks........
  6. by   wowza
    Quote from migster
    Wowza.
    It is obvious that you are informed with only half the story. If you are truly interested in the truth, I ask you to read my response, take a breath and think about it, not just fire off an angry response.

    How many patients have I admitted: NONE, and if you read my original post you will see that I never stated that I had, that is not my job. How many brain surgeries have you performed, NASA launches? It doesn't mean that you're not competent at what you do, it's just not in your job description.
    The destinction here is that I don't claim to be a neurosurgeon or an astrophysicist. You claim to be a physician.


    Quote from migster
    Yes, I can read an EKG, can you read X-rays/MRI? Yes I can perform a pelvic exam (depends on state) but I certainly would never because I leave that to those who are experts in the area. I also draw and interpret labs, perform examinations (real honest to goodness physical exams with a stethoscope and everything.....sarcasm intended) and refer out when appropriate (hmmm doesn't that sound like your garden variety GP).
    When have you ever had to interpret an EKG? You can read an EKG like I can read french. I can probably pick out a few things but to say I can read french is a gross overstatement.

    And no it doesn't sound like your garden variety GP because your garden variety GP has acumen in these areas because he/she has been adequately trained in it for a minimum of 8 years. You were trained in chiropractics for 4 years. You have not done medical rotations, you have not done residency and your 4 years of chiropractic school were not focused on the same things as a medical doctors was. Stop your BS. Please.


    Quote from migster
    Would I tell an MD that I am a physician, NO because in order for that to come up in conversation it would have to be in an argumentative setting; I work hand in hand with the MD not in an adversarial way. Many MD's refer their patients to my office. I have several surgeons, GPs, specialists, dentists and over 30 nurses as my patients. So unlike you who obviously believes that there is some great war, we work together, everyone knows their role, everyone respects each other's opinion.
    You did. In your last post. I am an MD (I also go to a chiropractor from time to time). I have respect for chiropractors and they make my back feel better. That said, I have respect only for those chiropractors that know their limitations and don't act like they can read EKGs or are PCPs. They just don't have the training. Physicians refer their patients because you have expertise in Chiropractics. You are not a GP. You are a chiropractor. Sure you work with MDs but that doesn't make you a physician.


    Quote from migster
    I am an honest person and never attacked in my original post, nor did I downgrade anyone; in fact, I believe that I praised nurses. This makes me ponder your hostility. I also must protest that you called me a liar when you've never met me; when I say hundreds, I mean hundreds.
    No, you upgraded yourself well above your paygrade. That is much, much worse and that kind of hubris is how people get hurt.
  7. by   Ellen NP
    2015 is the year for DNP for entry into practice, not 2010
  8. by   elkpark
    Quote from Ellen NP
    2015 is the year for DNP for entry into practice, not 2010
    That is still a proposal, not a requirement. The only advanced practice group that has actually embraced the mandatory-DNP idea is the CRNAs, and I believe their target date is 2025 (and it remains to be seen whether that will actually happen).
  9. by   psychonaut
    The DNP needs to develop it's own version of the COMLEX, i.e. Steps 1-3, tweaked to reflect "nursing theory/roles" type stuff (which will make many groan, but putting in this stuff is the only way to get academia to support it).
  10. by   Ellen NP
    Quote from psychonaut
    The DNP needs to develop it's own version of the COMLEX, i.e. Steps 1-3, tweaked to reflect "nursing theory/roles" type stuff (which will make many groan, but putting in this stuff is the only way to get academia to support it).
    Are we sure that we all want it to be supported?
  11. by   Ellen NP
    Quote from elkpark
    That is still a proposal, not a requirement. The only advanced practice group that has actually embraced the mandatory-DNP idea is the CRNAs, and I believe their target date is 2025 (and it remains to be seen whether that will actually happen).

    You're correct, it's a proposed requirement at this point, but discussion has focused on 2015 rather than 2010 as someone else posted.

    I suspect that the date will be moved back; too many questions still remain, in my opinion. Many of us would be more supportive of a clinical degree rather than a 'practice' degree. In any case, I don't believe that we are physicians.
  12. by   maldoniaNP
    Quote from psychonaut
    The DNP needs to develop it's own version of the COMLEX, i.e. Steps 1-3, tweaked to reflect "nursing theory/roles" type stuff (which will make many groan, but putting in this stuff is the only way to get academia to support it).
    But how could one go about preparing a single DNP licensing exam, when advanced practice training is already so specialized? Further, the DNP isn't limited to only APN students - nurses whose area of practice is, say, management/ hospital administration are enrolling in these programs as well. What single exam could possibly test for competence adequately in each area of specialization, without requiring each DNP student to have knowledge in areas completely unrelated to their specialty?

    We already have certification exams to test for competency in our respective areas of specialization. If the goal of creating a "DNP Exam" for all DNP graduates that resembles the COMLEX or USMLE is only to make the DNP look more like a medical degree (which, of course, it's not)...well, I'm just not convinced that's enough of a reason. Just my $0.02.
  13. by   AbeFrohman
    Why doesn't nursing come up with a generalist NP is what I want to know? Why can't we have an NP that can do acute care, primary care, first assist for both children and adults? I'm not suggesting that we get rid of the specialty degrees, but why not have one that is a combination of them all? Then the doctorate could be in a 12-24 month (depending on specialty) residency experience in a specialty. So you have generalist MSN NP, and a DNP specialty. It's more school time/money but I sure as heck would've done it. Everyone is happy this way. You have your MSN specialist, your MSN generalist, and a real clinical doctorate in a specialty. if you have the MSN specialist degree you could complete the generalist degree (after a period of practicing in your specialty) and have your doctorate. All problems solved.

    I know it will never come about (not in my lifetime), but a boy can dream.

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