Just a note on the NP vs PA debate... - page 4

I did not want to fuel this debate. In fact, I hadn't realized there was this much NP-PA hostility until I found this board. Honestly, I think it a trivial debate in the grand scheme of things....... Read More

  1. by   cgfnp
    Quote from PA-C in Texas
    I have corrected some of the errors espoused by a few of my NP colleagues numerous times in this forum, but it appears that they choose to still choke them up because they suggest a superiority of NP's to PA's.

    I would just add that I don't even SEE a physician except for when a patient's personal physician comes to the ED, or my supervising physician makes his visits to fulfill the supervisory requirements.

    In Texas, the last remnant BPAS program just got the axe. PA school is generally longer than NP school, and it resembles the format of medical school moreso than it does other graduate degrees (including MSN degrees). Students are admitted yearly into a class that has a fixed schedule (no part-timing here). Here's the way it went for my masters program: The first year consists of basic bio-science classes, some of which are the same classes that medical students take. The second year is more clinically focused. The third year consisted of eight six-week rotations in various specialties. We had enormous clinical experience in the field before we were actually allowed to go and practice. We didn't have summers off and they didn't offer night classes.

    If I ever get compared to a nurse's assistant again I am going to scream.
    You're right, even though you don't really know you are. It has nothing to do with what time the class starts or whether you take all of them in two years or four years. It does, however, have to do with the medical model vs the nursing model training. MSN program sucks something awful. I have to write papers about what Sister Calista Roy thinks about hand washing, yet I don't know how to read an EKG. But, I realize this so I'll be teaching myself the important stuff that I know I don't have a clue about because of the MSN bullsh*t. I'm still glad I did it this way because many of the docs in my state are going with NPs because we can practice without them in the building, whereas PAs cannot. Other than that, I'd go PA any day over the pure crap I have to learn at the present.

    The scary thing is, most of my classmates and probably many of the current practicing NPs don't have a clue that the training is so terrible, so they think they know what they need and go out and make fools out of the profession. I hear that a lot from docs I work with now. But, the good thing is they can recognize the 1-2 out of 10 NPs that are really good.
  2. by   RNPATL
    Quote from cgfnp
    MSN program sucks something awful. I have to write papers about what Sister Calista Roy thinks about hand washing, yet I don't know how to read an EKG. But, I realize this so I'll be teaching myself the important stuff that I know I don't have a clue about because of the MSN bullsh*t.
    I would really like to know what school you are attending that you think the track for MSN sucks. I have to disagree with you. I have found my program to be very thorough and has certainly taught me a great deal. In relationship to writing papers rather than learning clinical skills, I would have to say that by the time you get to the MSN, I would certainly hope you have read an EKG and can perform this function pretty independently. If not, then perhaps you need to get some additional clinical experience.

    I also think that a great many physicians have respect for most NP's. Yes, there are those out there that don't know enough to practice, but I would say they are few and far between. I have known a great many NP's in my time and they have been extremely skilled people and I would not have a problem with them treating me or a member of my family. To make such a broad statement is simply wrong and plays into the thinking that most NP are beneath other advanced trained professionals, which is just not true! If you hate the program so much and think that nursing theorists are not worth learning about, then perhaps you have chosen the wrong profession. I am not sure that PA's would want to have that kind of attitude among their ranks either.
  3. by   cgfnp
    Quote from RNPATL
    I would really like to know what school you are attending that you think the track for MSN sucks. I have to disagree with you. I have found my program to be very thorough and has certainly taught me a great deal. In relationship to writing papers rather than learning clinical skills, I would have to say that by the time you get to the MSN, I would certainly hope you have read an EKG and can perform this function pretty independently. If not, then perhaps you need to get some additional clinical experience.

    I also think that a great many physicians have respect for most NP's. Yes, there are those out there that don't know enough to practice, but I would say they are few and far between. I have known a great many NP's in my time and they have been extremely skilled people and I would not have a problem with them treating me or a member of my family. To make such a broad statement is simply wrong and plays into the thinking that most NP are beneath other advanced trained professionals, which is just not true! If you hate the program so much and think that nursing theorists are not worth learning about, then perhaps you have chosen the wrong profession. I am not sure that PA's would want to have that kind of attitude among their ranks either.
    You can keep reading about the nursing theorists... I really don't care.

    I actually convinced the school to accept me straight out of BSN program, but quit after a semester because I actually thought there would be some good information and teaching. So, I took a year off and practiced in ER. And if you think looking over the doc's shoulder and saying, "yeah, that's what I thought too" about an EKG is learning to interpret one, then I hope no one ever comes to you for heart problems.

    True, I shouldn't make generalizations about NPs as a whole, but I can only comment on what I've seen in this area. Here, NPs are beneath in my opinion because there is no interview, there's no admission test, no nothing to screen applicants. So, I have several classmates that are barely smart enough to walk safely much less f*ck with someone's digoxin and coumadin.

    I can't tell you where I go because I'm quite the conspiracy theorist now that I've seen more than one classmate who would've been good NPs get booted out for not writing a paper about nursing crap the way the instructor thought it should be written. I don't even fill out the class evals because they're not anonymous enough. Trust me... if you were in my program, you'd feel the same way.

    I'm in this profession because I want to practice medicine, period. I don't care about any of the nursing bullsh*t. I can't wait to leave it FAAARRRR behind me and forget it forever.
  4. by   RNPATL
    Quote from cgfnp
    You can keep reading about the nursing theorists... I really don't care.

    I actually convinced the school to accept me straight out of BSN program, but quit after a semester because I actually thought there would be some good information and teaching. So, I took a year off and practiced in ER. And if you think looking over the doc's shoulder and saying, "yeah, that's what I thought too" about an EKG is learning to interpret one, then I hope no one ever comes to you for heart problems.

    True, I shouldn't make generalizations about NPs as a whole, but I can only comment on what I've seen in this area. Here, NPs are beneath in my opinion because there is no interview, there's no admission test, no nothing to screen applicants. So, I have several classmates that are barely smart enough to walk safely much less f*ck with someone's digoxin and coumadin.

    I can't tell you where I go because I'm quite the conspiracy theorist now that I've seen more than one classmate who would've been good NPs get booted out for not writing a paper about nursing crap the way the instructor thought it should be written. I don't even fill out the class evals because they're not anonymous enough. Trust me... if you were in my program, you'd feel the same way.

    I'm in this profession because I want to practice medicine, period. I don't care about any of the nursing bullsh*t. I can't wait to leave it FAAARRRR behind me and forget it forever.
    Wow - I guess you have answered my questions quite well. Perhaps you should go to med school if you want to practice medicine.
  5. by   cgfnp
    Quote from RNPATL
    Wow - I guess you have answered my questions quite well. Perhaps you should go to med school if you want to practice medicine.
    That's the whole point of going to NP school. I didn't want to spend the next 8 years (med school and residency... and residency is a whole different discussion I have problems with) away from my family. I'll get to practice medicine (although it is limited in autonomy to primary care/urgent care) and it saved me 6 years and over $1,000,000 in student loans/lost income.

    I guess down the road if I want to be a surgeon or something I'll apply to med school. I can't see giving up so much time though....
  6. by   UCLARN
    Are you sure you were in an NP program. Come to ours, they'll have you working hard. We didn't write papers about Calista Roy or other nursing theorists. You sound very frustrated and bitter, maybe you failed out instead of enrolling out. Regarding NP's as being beneath you, wow do you do this to other nurses (those with an ADN or LVN's)? Can you express yourself in a civilized manner without the use of profanity?

    Quote from cgfnp
    You can keep reading about the nursing theorists... I really don't care.

    I actually convinced the school to accept me straight out of BSN program, but quit after a semester because I actually thought there would be some good information and teaching. So, I took a year off and practiced in ER. And if you think looking over the doc's shoulder and saying, "yeah, that's what I thought too" about an EKG is learning to interpret one, then I hope no one ever comes to you for heart problems.

    True, I shouldn't make generalizations about NPs as a whole, but I can only comment on what I've seen in this area. Here, NPs are beneath in my opinion because there is no interview, there's no admission test, no nothing to screen applicants. So, I have several classmates that are barely smart enough to walk safely much less f*ck with someone's digoxin and coumadin.

    I can't tell you where I go because I'm quite the conspiracy theorist now that I've seen more than one classmate who would've been good NPs get booted out for not writing a paper about nursing crap the way the instructor thought it should be written. I don't even fill out the class evals because they're not anonymous enough. Trust me... if you were in my program, you'd feel the same way.

    I'm in this profession because I want to practice medicine, period. I don't care about any of the nursing bullsh*t. I can't wait to leave it FAAARRRR behind me and forget it forever.
  7. by   ayndim
    What is the big beef between NP's and PA's. Although the training is different surely both have the same level of competency. So what if PA's have to workwith a Dr. Any NP I have seen works with a dr too. And any advantage a PA may think they have in education is countered by the experience an NP has as an RN, right?
  8. by   R2MD
    Quote from Alnamvet
    CME's...NP's, MD's, and PA's must have them...only the PA has to take the PA exam AGAIN, every 6 years...
    \
    Last edit by R2MD on Apr 11, '05
  9. by   foxyhill21
    Do PA work in L&D units and what is there actual salary
  10. by   patnshan
    Quote from ayndim
    What is the big beef between NP's and PA's. Although the training is different surely both have the same level of competency. So what if PA's have to workwith a Dr. Any NP I have seen works with a dr too. And any advantage a PA may think they have in education is countered by the experience an NP has as an RN, right?
    Nope. That is a common arguement, but not supported in fact. Being a nurse does not substitute for training to be a clinician. I was an RN and then went to PA school, so I am familiar with this. Competency is individual, and cannot be generalized to an entire profession. Intensive education on how to be a clinician is required in both NP and PA tracts. Being an RN is not diagnosing and treating disease.

    Pat
  11. by   FNP/DNP
    Quote from Alnamvet
    Not sure what it is you are trying to scream out, but let's just say anybody can be a PA, with or without a bachelors degree....only a Registered Nurse can be a NP, CNM, CNA, etc. A PA is just that...an Assistant to a MD/DO; just like a nursing assistant is an assistant to an RN or LPN. The only ones I see, besides yourself, who have issues, are the PA's themselves, who hate the term assistant, have been trying for years to get it changed...why even Yale calls their program the physician associate program, but not even Connecticut will allow the PA's tpo call themselves anything but physician assistants. PA's are assistants, they always have been, and always will be...they assist doctors with all the scut work, and all their work needs to be reviewed and approved by a supervising physician; anymore they are not...that's the way it's legislated, accept it, and forget it.
    I am an NP, but having spent some time on the PA forum have gotten some good education about their profession. First of all-not anyone can be a PA- those are very competitive programs to enter, harder to get into than NP programs. PA's have excellent training and many PA's work independently, with physcians cosigning charts just like we do. This debate is senseless.
    We have more similarities than differences.
  12. by   patnshan
    Quote from FNP/DNP
    I am an NP, but having spent some time on the PA forum have gotten some good education about their profession. First of all-not anyone can be a PA- those are very competitive programs to enter, harder to get into than NP programs. PA's have excellent training and many PA's work independently, with physcians cosigning charts just like we do. This debate is senseless.
    We have more similarities than differences.
    AMEN! :hatparty:

    Pat
  13. by   sailornurse
    Quote from Kabin
    Interesting thread as I've been internally debating the PA/NP path for a few days now. I received a PA flyer from MidWestern University and it states that PAs need to sit for a recertification exam every 6 years. I have yet to hear anything similar for NPs.
    NP's with Master's degree certify by the ANCC-American Nurses Credentialing Center every 5 years. I am getting ready to re-cert. I am also licensed as a NP.

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