discussion regarding education of NP (DNP) and PA compared to MD/DO

  1. 0
    Doctor of Nursing Practice

    Sample Plan of Full-time Study

    The program requires a minimum of 38 credits comprised of 19 credits of core courses, 15 credits of specialty electives, and 4 credits for a capstone project. Full-time or part-time options are available.
    First Semester (Fall) Course Title Credits NDNP 802 Methods for Evidence-Based Practice 3 NDNP 804 Theoretical and Philosophical Foundations
    of Nursing Practice 3 NDNP xxx Specialty Elective 3 NDNP 810 Capstone Project Identification 1 Total 10 Second Semester (Spring) Course Title Credits NDNP 805 Design and Analysis for Evidence-Based Practice 4 NDNP 807 Information Systems and Technology for the
    Improvement and Transformation of Health Care 3 NDNP xxx Specialty Elective 3 NDNP 811 Capstone II Project Development 1 Total 11 Third Semester (Summer) Course Title Credits NDNP xxx Specialty Elective 1 NDNP 809 Complex Healthcare Systems 3 NDNP 812 Capstone III Project Implementation 1 Total 5 Fourth Semester (Fall) Course Title Credits NDNP 815 Leadership and Interprofessional Collaboration 3 NDNP xxx Specialty Elective 8 NDNP 813 Capstone IV Project Evaluation & Dissemination 1 Total 12 Total Credits Total Credits Total Credits 38
    University of Maryland School of Nursing ∑ 655 West Lombard Street Baltimore, MD 21201, USA ∑ 410.706.3100
    Last modified on June 20, 2007 by the Webmaster.
    Copyright © 2004 - 2006; School of Nursing, University of Maryland, Baltimore
    2 years

    MD program University of MD
    Curriculum at a Glance

    Year I
    37 weeks
    I ORIENTATION
    (9 days)
    Informatics, Introduction to Clinical Medicine
    II STRUCTURE AND DEVELOPMENT
    (49 days)

    Participating departments/divisions: Anatomy and Neurobiology, Surgery, Diagnostic Radiology

    Areas of study: Human gross anatomy, embryology and histology
    III CELL AND MOLECULAR BIOLOGY
    (44 days)

    Participating departments/divisions: Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Medicine, Human Genetics, Anatomy and Neurobiology, Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, Cancer Center

    Areas of Study: Protein structure and function, cellular metabolic pathways, cell signal transduction, cell microanatomy, human genetics, molecular biology
    IV FUNCTIONAL SYSTEMS
    (49 days)

    Participating departments/divisions: Anesthesiology, Internal Medicine, Neurology, Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Sciences, Pediatrics, Physiology, Surgery
    Areas of study: Cell, cardiovascular, endocrine, gastrointestinal, renal, respiratory and integrative function
    V NEUROSCIENCES
    (29 days)

    Participating departments/divisions: Anatomy and Neurobiology, Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Neurology, Physiology, Surgery
    Areas of Study: Development, structure and function of nervous tissues, anatomical organization of CNS, sensory and motor systems, higher functions, concepts in clinical neurology
    ICP INTRODUCTION TO CLINICAL MEDICINE
    (1/2 day per week and selected full days throughout the year)

    Participating departments/divisions: Family Medicine, Pediatrics, Psychiatry, Internal Medicine, Surgery, Neurology, Surgery, Obstetrics/Gynecology, Emergency Medicine
    Areas of study: Ethics, nutrition, intimate human behavior, interviewing and physical diagnosis issues, topics relevant to delivery of primary care, doctor-patient relationship
    Year II
    I HOST DEFENSES AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES
    (52 days)

    Participating departments/divisions: Epidemiology and Preventive Medicine, Medicine, Microbiology and Immunology, Pathology, Pediatrics, Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics

    Areas of Study: Immunology, bacteriology, virology, parasitology, mycology
    II PATHOPHYSIOLOGY AND THERAPEUTICS I and II
    (108 days)

    Participating departments/divisions: Anesthesiology, Cancer Center, Dermatology, Diagnostic Radiology, Epidemiology and Preventive Medicine, Medicine, Neurology, Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Sciences, Pathology, Pediatrics, Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, Psychiatry, Surgery

    Areas of study: Bone, cardiovascular, dermatology, endocrine, gastroenterology, hematology, nervous, pulmonary, renal and reproductive systems
    INTRODUCTION TO CLINICAL MEDICINE
    (1/2 day per week and selected full days throughout the year)

    Participating departments/divisions: Medicine, Family Medicine, Pediatrics, Psychiatry, Neurology, Ophthalmology, Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Sciences

    Areas of Study: Fundamental aspects of history-taking and physical examination, medical ethics, medical economics
    Year III
    48 weeks
    TIME COURSE TITLE 12 weeks Internal Medicine 12 weeks Surgery/Surgical Subspecialty 4 weeks Family Medicine Clerkship 6 weeks OB/GYN Clerkship 6 weeks Pediatrics Clerkship 4 weeks Psychiatry Clerkship 4 weeks Neurology Clerkship

    Year IV
    32 weeks (tentative schedule)
    APPROXIMATE TIME COURSE TITLE 8 weeks AHEC 8 weeks Sub-Internship 16 weeks Electives


    I do not see how they are the same?




    Last edit by RN to Medschool on Jul 9, '08
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  3. 343 Comments so far...

  4. 1
    Dear CORE0:

    As far as the rest:
    Originally Posted by DRFP
    Core0 You fullfill my expectations of a PA, LOL Insults are very mature......

    IM is now 4 years in many progrems, there are a Few that are 3 Years, , I was speaking in general but when Nurses and PA's start to argue, emotions are used as facts. This is one reason why I'm becoming a Doctor verses staying an RN, just tired of the BS in the profession.

    Yea right as much as we are to believe you are a PA-C,
    Originally Posted by DRFP
    CORE0, it must frustrate you that DNP's, NP's and PA's will not by law be called Doctor in the clinical setting, if you want that there is Medical School.

    As far as training for full License Here's Ga law for an example

    I put in bold the 3 years.

    This is typical of many states laws and should be the standard posted.

    You see Medical Students do not pick the lowest standard as a rule we pick the highest.


    Good Luck
    Originally Posted by DRFP
    PA's in GA are kept under close Physician supervision even in satellite offices:

    If you are not practicing this way in GA ( as the other PA's ) then the law is being broken.

    Not a good thing.
    I bolded some stuff to help you "remember".

    David Carpenter, PA-C
    This was after you questioned my credentials.........

    For someone that purports to be in medical school
    Called me a guest? because I'm a Medical student? I'm also a Nurse, an RN of 20 years I think that means I should be allowed on a Nursing forum and have opinions about Nursing, right?

    Also the Georgia law clearly does say 1 and 3 years for license I pointed that out, 1 for US grad and 3 for FMG grad, Caribbean students can be licensed in GA I know more then a few

    (ii) Applicants who graduated from medical school after July 1, 1985 must complete
    three years of post-graduate training in the United States in a program approved by the
    Accreditation Council of Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) or the American
    Osteopathic Association (AOA) or three years of post-graduate training in Canada in a
    http://allnurses.com/forums/f34/do-y...ml#post2954878 link to the post of the full law.

    I stated fact that if you are not adhering to the Law of Georgia for a PA then you are breaking it. Simple I think. Not an insult just a fact. How is that hostile? I must adhere to GA law for Nursing as a nurse and to the Law as a medical student.

    For you to be so hostile to me I must hit a nerve. It is not very professional.

    don't really have a hard time supporting physicians in this, I do have a hard time supporting you. Nursing will now have to make up a new term when horizontal violence is practiced by a former nurse now practicing medicine. I precept medical students, PA students and NPs. I understand the difference in educational models and how to respect people.
    This is 100% uncalled for. and not professional, I would not treat you different for not agreeing with me.

    I have no Idea what you mean by "Violence"? That seems physical? all because I do not agree with you? WOW
    Last edit by RN to Medschool on Jul 9, '08
    MoreThanAJob likes this.
  5. 2
    I want to preface by pointing out I was essentially arguing your side in the other thread.

    That said, the degree plan you list for the DNP is for those that already have their MSN/NP, so it isn't accurate.
    ybq2008 and juan de la cruz like this.
  6. 0
    Admission Requirements
    • Cumulative GPA of 3.0 on a 4.0 scale in a program resulting in the award of a masterís degree in nursing from an NLNAC- or CCNE-accredited college or university, or an equivalent degree from a comparable foreign university
    • Official transcripts for all prior undergraduate and graduate study
    • Three letters of recommendation
    • An interview with selected applicants will be arranged after the applications are received and reviewed
    • 500 to 1,000-word essay outlining goals, objectives, and focused area of interest in pursuing the DNP
    • Current RN license (Clinical agencies may require a Maryland license.)
    • Current resume or curriculum vitae
    i think it is relevant since a Masters in Nursing is not clinically oriented all the time:
    Clinical Nurse Leader

    Fall Admission Sample Plan of Study Options Course Title (Credits) 16-Month Option 21-Month Option First Semester (Fall) NURS 501: Pathopharmacology and Pharmacology Bases
    for Nursing Practice (5) NURS 503: Health Assessment (3) NURS 505: Introduction to Professional Nursing Practice (4) NURS 507: Introduction to Nursing and the Clinical Nurse Leader Role (3) NURS 622: Systems and Populations in Health Care (3) Winter Session NURS 625: Gerontology Nursing (3) Second Semester (Spring) NURS 511: Psychiatric/Mental Health Nursing for
    Clinical Nurse Leader (5) NURS 514: Adult Health Nursing (6) NURS 625: Gerontology Nursing (3) NURS 701: Science and Research for Advanced Practice Nursing (4) NURS 736: Informatics and Technology (3) Summer Session NURS 509: Nursing Care of the Childbearing Family (5) NURS 517: Nursing Care of Infants and Children (4) Third Semester (Fall) NURS 511: Psychiatric/Mental Health Nursing (5) NURS 622: Systems: Populations in Health Care (3) NURS 736: Informatics and Technology (3) NURS 523: Clinical Nurse Leader Practicum (8) NURS 525: Clinical Nurse Leader (3) NURS 508: Community Health Nursing (5) Fourth Semester (Spring) NURS 508: Community Health Nursing (5) NURS 523: Clinical Nurse Leader Practicum (8) NURS 525: Clinical Nurse Leader (3) Total Credits Total Credits for MS CNL Option (either time-line) 64
    Yes the MSN is just more Nursing courses really

    I can only look at it I do not have a MSN myself
  7. 0
    My Point is that the RN BSN and MSN are Nursing oriented degrees

    Even the DNP seems to be more Nursing then Medical

    so a DNP is 75% Nursing and maybe 25% Medical as what I currently understand. A NP that gets a DNP will have more Medical training though.

    This is not personal but should be looked at for comparison to MD and DO since there are some who have said DNP should be Primary care providers like MD's and DO's

    I do not agree.
  8. 26
    DRFP,

    First, good luck on your new career path. As a fellow nurse and a practicing nurse practitioner, I am particularly proud of nurses who venture into other fields of study and career paths specifically those who later on become physicians, lawyers, and other types of professionals. I hope you do not forget your nursing background as I feel that this will benefit you immensely in your future practice as a physician.

    I also understand that you are very passionate about making everyone in this forum realize that a nurse practitioner's training at the DNP level is not the same as that of a physician with a MD or DO degree. That is a fact nurse practitioners like me totally agree with. Regardless of what you've heard or read in the news or any form of media, and regardless of whatever anyone says in this forum, nurse pracitioners are NOT out to replace physicians. Even with the DNP, no reputable nurse practitioner organization or training program endorses this notion.

    I invite you to read the American Association of Colleges of Nursing's FAQ's on the DNP and focus your attention to questions number 21 and 22 (http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/DNPFAQ.htm). Do not hesitate to ask any practicing NP's opinion on matters pertaining to our practice. As I respect your choice to become a physician, I ask that you also do the same for the NP's and would be NP's who frequent this forum. Flaming words and insults are not necessary as we exchange opinions.
  9. 3
    Quote from DRFP
    This is not personal but should be looked at for comparison to MD and DO since there are some who have said DNP should be Primary care providers like MD's and DO's
    Long before the DNP became public, nurse practitioners have been providing primary care to many patients. The nurse practice acts of each state have provisions that allow this to happen. Physician involvement varies but that does not in any way discredit the fact that NP's have been providing primary care.
  10. 2
    My honest opinion as someone who has already lined up my way into a master's after graduation is that I am a bit disappointed in the lack of medical training for the DNP, too.

    That said, I'm happy that alternative teaching strategies such as online classes are offered. I know many of your peers at SDN look down upon online classes, but for many subjects I've found online classes to be equally as rigorous as in-person classes. The online classes certainly beat the large classes, nay, lectures with 100-200 students that made up the bulk of my undergrad biology degree.

    So while the overall medical education aspect of the DNP leaves me wanting, I find that the style of education is a lot more conducive to my learning than spending hours strapped in a seat for several years, staying up all night cramming for tests. I actually think the medical model could use a major overhaul and produce far superior doctors than current. The only thing going for the current model is 100 or so years of tradition, essentially. Even counting the DO programs, there is no real deviation from the norm to compare to. I think, even with highly reduced didactic and clinical hours, if the DNP is successful it will force the medical model to reevaluate itself and perhaps make changes for the better-- there's quite a few people I know that would make excellent physicians but they don't even look into it because they value the stability of their family lifes and income. They see how the medical model stresses people and stretches them to their very core and unlike some of the nontraditional medical students or the traditional students naive to the world, they are sane enough to realize it isn't worth it as currently established.

    There is nothing inherent in the medical model that forces it to be soul-destroying. There are plenty of other fields with equally difficult if not more difficult content to master which do not place the same stresses on oneself.
    labcat01 and Medic09 like this.
  11. 7
    Quote from DRFP
    i think it is relevant since a Masters in Nursing is not clinically oriented all the time:Yes the MSN is just more Nursing courses really

    I can only look at it I do not have a MSN myself
    A Masters-prepared nurse without a clinical specialization (such as NP, CNS, CNM, or CRNA) who finishes a DNP program (whether a program allows this to happen or not) is NOT an advanced practice nurse without receiving the required courses and being certified in one of the advanced practice nursing fields (with the exception of the CNS in certain states). This is what's frustrating about some of the DNP programs around. If the DNP is supposed to be a clinical doctorate, then only those who are already certified as advanced practice nurses or are training to become advanced practice nurses should be allowed to register.
  12. 5
    Quote from DRFP
    Dear CORE0:

    This was after you questioned my credentials.........

    Called me a guest? because I'm a Medical student? I'm also a Nurse, an RN of 20 years I think that means I should be allowed on a Nursing forum and have opinions about Nursing, right?

    Also the Georgia law clearly does say 1 and 3 years for license I pointed that out, 1 for US grad and 3 for FMG grad, Caribbean students can be licensed in GA I know more then a few

    http://allnurses.com/forums/f34/do-y...ml#post2954878 link to the post of the full law.

    I stated fact that if you are not adhering to the Law of Georgia for a PA then you are breaking it. Simple I think. Not an insult just a fact. How is that hostile? I must adhere to GA law for Nursing as a nurse and to the Law as a medical student.

    For you to be so hostile to me I must hit a nerve. It is not very professional.

    This is 100% uncalled for. and not professional, I would not treat you different for not agreeing with me.

    I have no Idea what you mean by "Violence"? That seems physical? all because I do not agree with you? WOW
    I'll man up here. I apologize for my unprofessional comments. Blame it on a job where a bad week means people die.

    David Carpenter, PA-C


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