Anyone heard of any NP to MD programs? - page 7

A girl I go to school with said that there is a school in Missouri that has a bridge program for NPs to become MDs. Have any of you heard of a program like this?? :confused: Thanks! Kitty... Read More

  1. by   core0
    Quote from veritas
    i meant becoz in US you have some programs which shave off 1 year from the 4 year post-grad program, essentially making it 3 years post grad for a med degree. there is no such thing in uk or oz or most 1st world countries. in oz and uk, even after u do a degree, no matter what it is or how much experience you have, u end up in the bottom with the rest, without exemptions. and in some countries, even if u have a prior degree, u still have to do the 8 years. so US is already providing the shortest recognised program in the world.
    I'm not aware of any programs that allow you to do medical school in three years in the US. Most medical schools follow the same pattern, 2 years of didactic and two years of clerkships. The fastest medical degree that I am aware of is in Ireland and Eastern Europe where it is six years.

    David Carpenter, PA-C
  2. by   veritas
    Quote from core0
    I'm not aware of any programs that allow you to do medical school in three years in the US. Most medical schools follow the same pattern, 2 years of didactic and two years of clerkships. The fastest medical degree that I am aware of is in Ireland and Eastern Europe where it is six years.

    David Carpenter, PA-C
    i would hardly be making up things that i post. i am aware that what i post is easily cross-checked. i personally triple check things i post before i post them. to name one of the schools offering a 3 year short cut med degree, is the school of medicine at university of missouri. u may skip year 1 if they deem u suitable.
  3. by   core0
    Quote from veritas
    i would hardly be making up things that i post. i am aware that what i post is easily cross-checked. i personally triple check things i post before i post them. to name one of the schools offering a 3 year short cut med degree, is the school of medicine at university of missouri. u may skip year 1 if they deem u suitable.
    I couldn't find it on their website. Also just because it can happen doesn't mean that it happens. I have heard of medical students being allowed to skip individual classes if they have expertise in the field. For example if you have a PhD in embryology you may get a pass on embryology. The University of Minnesota trialed a program in the early 1970's and eventually abandoned it. The scores were the same, but there was a concern over clinical competence and from what I understand the graduates had a very hard time getting residencies.
    http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal...accno=ED077343
    I would be interested in a link to a 3 year program. I would not be surprised to find one out there, but it is far from the norm and I would guess that it would impact the residency choice (just as going to Oceania would impact your ability to be licensed). There are MD/PhD programs that shave a year off medical school but you make up that year in the PhD part and you end up being in "medical school" for 7-8 years.


    edit actually here is a 3 year primary care program. I would note that without the other electives it would pretty much preclude you from doing anything but primary care (and really only FP at that).
    http://www.academicmedicine.org/pt/r...195629!8091!-1

    Like I said there are programs out there but they are rare and carry penalties. I suspect this will not last long.

    David Carpenter, PA-C
    Last edit by core0 on Oct 7, '07
  4. by   caldje
    Quote from core0
    edit actually here is a 3 year primary care program. I would note that without the other electives it would pretty much preclude you from doing anything but primary care (and really only FP at that).
    http://www.academicmedicine.org/pt/r...195629!8091!-1

    Like I said there are programs out there but they are rare and carry penalties. I suspect this will not last long.

    David Carpenter, PA-C
    I diagree a little bit. I think that the 3 year primary care tract will become more common. But, also realize that it isn't that you apply, are accepted, and enter the 3 year tract. You apply and are accepted to the medical school. Then you apply to the 3 year tract for which only 12 are accepted into it. Those twelve still enter a 4 year program, after the first 15-18 weeks of school (anatomy, biochem, etc.) the 6 with the best grades are allowed to continue in the primary care 3 yr tract. After they are done, they can do a residency in any field (if they can get admitted) but will have to pay back 4th year tuition if they don't stay in primary care (FP, IM, OBGYN, or PEDS) for at least 5 years AFTER residency.

    So, this is not a viable option for someone to do a 3 year program. This is only available to those commited to a four year program who are excell early on in the med school program.

    In the future, I think you will see more of these programs as an incentive to enter into a low paying primary care field. New FP residency graduates can expect 100-120k a year and salaries really top out at 160k a year. If you go to a DO school like Lake Erie you will likely be 200k in debt just from med school for 4 years. Its just not a good deal for all the hard work put in. The 3 year curriculum fixes that by taking away 25% of medical school debt.
  5. by   core0
    Quote from caldje
    I diagree a little bit. I think that the 3 year primary care tract will become more common. But, also realize that it isn't that you apply, are accepted, and enter the 3 year tract. You apply and are accepted to the medical school. Then you apply to the 3 year tract for which only 12 are accepted into it. Those twelve still enter a 4 year program, after the first 15-18 weeks of school (anatomy, biochem, etc.) the 6 with the best grades are allowed to continue in the primary care 3 yr tract. After they are done, they can do a residency in any field (if they can get admitted) but will have to pay back 4th year tuition if they don't stay in primary care (FP, IM, OBGYN, or PEDS) for at least 5 years AFTER residency.

    So, this is not a viable option for someone to do a 3 year program. This is only available to those commited to a four year program who are excell early on in the med school program.

    In the future, I think you will see more of these programs as an incentive to enter into a low paying primary care field. New FP residency graduates can expect 100-120k a year and salaries really top out at 160k a year. If you go to a DO school like Lake Erie you will likely be 200k in debt just from med school for 4 years. Its just not a good deal for all the hard work put in. The 3 year curriculum fixes that by taking away 25% of medical school debt.
    Actually I think that you have the process wrong. You do have to be admitted to LECOM. Then you have to be accepted into the PCSP program. They are taking six this year and it will gradually increase over the next four years to 12. This is a separate pathway and there is no way to move into one of their other pathways once you stop since you will be off cycle. After 20 months you start your clerkships. I didn't find anything about having to pay back and it would be hard to charge someone for education that you never received.
    The main points can be found here:
    http://my.lecom.edu/bradenton/news/PCSP2.asp

    Left unspoken is the fact that if you opt out you could wait four months and join the other class in the regular program after completing the didactic portion. The real decrease in the course time is out of the clerkships. The main time savings in the didactic year is the loss of summer vacation. They have only compressed things a month outside of that.

    The main time savings in the clerkship is the deletion of 13 clerkships with addition of five. This amounts to nine months of time. This is also the reason that the DO is unlikely to get into anything but an FP residency. Among the missing clerkships are one IM, one EM and one surgery. Since most residencies want you to show interest and have some experience in the field they are unlikely to want a student that cannot demonstrate an interest. I am referring to IM, Peds and OB/GYN which are the traditional primary care residencies.
    The changes are detailed here:
    http://www.fmdrl.org/index.cfm?event...ment&riid=1182

    The big problem that I see is that they are taking people that don't know much about medicine much less primary care and committing them to a FP only medical practice. There are some that during medical school will discover they don't want to do FP but are now committed (although this won't be much different than the "I'm a doctor but I don't like medicine what do I do now?" posts that you see all the time on Studentdoctor).

    David Carpenter, PA-C
  6. by   caldje
    Quote from core0
    Actually I think that you have the process wrong. You do have to be admitted to LECOM. Then you have to be accepted into the PCSP program. They are taking six this year and it will gradually increase over the next four years to 12. This is a separate pathway and there is no way to move into one of their other pathways once you stop since you will be off cycle. After 20 months you start your clerkships. I didn't find anything about having to pay back and it would be hard to charge someone for education that you never received.
    The main points can be found here:
    http://my.lecom.edu/bradenton/news/PCSP2.asp

    Left unspoken is the fact that if you opt out you could wait four months and join the other class in the regular program after completing the didactic portion. The real decrease in the course time is out of the clerkships. The main time savings in the didactic year is the loss of summer vacation. They have only compressed things a month outside of that.

    The main time savings in the clerkship is the deletion of 13 clerkships with addition of five. This amounts to nine months of time. This is also the reason that the DO is unlikely to get into anything but an FP residency. Among the missing clerkships are one IM, one EM and one surgery. Since most residencies want you to show interest and have some experience in the field they are unlikely to want a student that cannot demonstrate an interest. I am referring to IM, Peds and OB/GYN which are the traditional primary care residencies.
    The changes are detailed here:
    http://www.fmdrl.org/index.cfm?event...ment&riid=1182

    The big problem that I see is that they are taking people that don't know much about medicine much less primary care and committing them to a FP only medical practice. There are some that during medical school will discover they don't want to do FP but are now committed (although this won't be much different than the "I'm a doctor but I don't like medicine what do I do now?" posts that you see all the time on Studentdoctor).

    David Carpenter, PA-C
    David,

    I think if you were to watch this video. You may understand what I am trying to describe. This is a primary care 'scholars' program. The scholar's part being emphasized because that is why it is possible. Emphasized by the speaker. I think once you watch the video you will realize this is far from a guranteed pathway and one could easily find themselves in a 4 year curriculum without ever having the intention of spending 4 years in the school. Only the best are allowed to finish in three years, for the reasons you described.

    http://www.mutualgravity.com/dld/ywm...20bandwith.mp4
    Last edit by caldje on Oct 7, '07
  7. by   core0
    Quote from caldje
    David,

    I think if you were to watch this video. You may understand what I am trying to describe. This is a primary care 'scholars' program. The scholar's part being emphasized because that is why it is possible. Emphasized by the speaker. I think once you watch the video you will realize this is far from a guranteed pathway and one could easily find themselves in a 4 year curriculum without ever having the intention of spending 4 years in the school. Only the best are allowed to finish in three years, for the reasons you described.

    http://www.mutualgravity.com/dld/ywm...20bandwith.mp4
    Interesting. I still think that you would have a hard time forcing someone to pay for something they did not receive after they graduated. They could force you to pay the scholarship back. You could also construct it such that you pay all four years tuition for three years but they defer one year if you adhere to the contract.

    This is also different from what they presented at the STFM meeting. This is the first year so they obviously are still playing with it. The other issue is that I doubt that this is aimed at giving credit for people with prior healthcare experience. While the fact that you only pay 2 years tuition (counting the scholarship) is interesting, the opportunity cost doesn't make sense for someone already in primary care. The other thing that you have to remember is that at its fullest expanse this is less than 10% of LECOMs graduates.

    Now going back to the thread, what if you designed a program that took experienced NP/PA and did one year of didactic (all that nice embryology and stuff we missed) and one year of clinicals. This would reduce the transition to five years which would be more doable. Not going to happen though.

    David Carpenter, PA-C
  8. by   veritas
    Quote from core0
    I couldn't find it on their website. Also just because it can happen doesn't mean that it happens. I have heard of medical students being allowed to skip individual classes if they have expertise in the field.......
    David Carpenter, PA-C
    i agree about the difficulty in getting residency if you did an oceania degree.... i mean any off shore degree will be difficult in getting you a residency anyway... plus oceania is dodgy... the 3 year program i mentioned is actually happening, with real people in it and has been on for some years. and they have no issues with residencies. it is on their site, but you have to know exactly what you are looking for. for obvious reasons, this program is a bit hush hush because they don't want a lot of people to suddenly abandon nursing and hop over to MD, making the nursing crisis worse than it is...

    are you interested in becoming an MD? i notice u post a lot about this topic everywhere... since you r a PA, how is the RN to MD program applicable to you?
  9. by   core0
    Quote from veritas
    i agree about the difficulty in getting residency if you did an oceania degree.... i mean any off shore degree will be difficult in getting you a residency anyway... plus oceania is dodgy... the 3 year program i mentioned is actually happening, with real people in it and has been on for some years. and they have no issues with residencies. it is on their site, but you have to know exactly what you are looking for. for obvious reasons, this program is a bit hush hush because they don't want a lot of people to suddenly abandon nursing and hop over to md, making the nursing crisis worse than it is...

    if you are referring to the university of missouri program, without any data on what they are actually doing, it is hard to tell what is actually happening. the school still has to meet acgme guidelines. like i stated just because it can happen doesn't mean it does happen. as far as people hopping over from nursing to md given the numbers of nurses leaving the profession for other reasons, there are probably bigger fish to fry.

    are you interested in becoming an md? i notice u post a lot about this topic everywhere... since you r a pa, how is the rn to md program applicable to you?
    i personally am not interested in becoming an md. there has been a lot of interest in the pa profession about bridge programs to md. there has always been a small amount of pas that go on to medical school. anectdotally there seems to be an increase in pas that work in the field for a few years and the apply to medical school. the discussion centers around whether programs are selecting the right students for their programs or is this a natural evolution for the profession. the concern is that as the student base grows younger and programs expand we are selecting students that are not committed to the profession.

    as far as how a rn to md program is applicable to me, its not. an np to md program however, should look at the same issues as a pa to md program as far as how to value experience and prior classroom knowledge.

    david carpenter, pa-c
  10. by   sirI
    Thanks, David, for the wealth of information you supply on this topic.
  11. by   dianacs
    Quote from veritas
    they don't want a lot of people to suddenly abandon nursing and hop over to MD, making the nursing crisis worse than it is...
    It always strikes me as odd when people say this and it reminds me of posts in a similar vein...first of all, it is probably only a very small percentage of nurses who a)want to become physicians and b)will actually do what it takes to become one. Second, if a nurse wishes to become a physician, it seems to me that they are wanting to leave bedside nursing whether or not they get into medical school (i.e. they would go to PA or NP school instead). So you really aren't "saving" any nurses for the bedside by throwing up barriers to medical school. Third, it's not the job of the medical schools to alleviate perceived nursing shortages by not accepting RNs. (I'm not saying this actually happens, but there is a perception that some schools will turn you down because you are more "needed" as a nurse). My point is, if an RN wants to be a physician, so what? I can't speak to traditional vs. nontraditional medical schools--I've never researched either kind, so other people can argue whether shortcuts are appropriate. Anyway, just had to get that off my chest.
  12. by   core0
    Quote from dianacs
    It always strikes me as odd when people say this and it reminds me of posts in a similar vein...first of all, it is probably only a very small percentage of nurses who a)want to become physicians and b)will actually do what it takes to become one. Second, if a nurse wishes to become a physician, it seems to me that they are wanting to leave bedside nursing whether or not they get into medical school (i.e. they would go to PA or NP school instead). So you really aren't "saving" any nurses for the bedside by throwing up barriers to medical school. Third, it's not the job of the medical schools to alleviate perceived nursing shortages by not accepting RNs. (I'm not saying this actually happens, but there is a perception that some schools will turn you down because you are more "needed" as a nurse). My point is, if an RN wants to be a physician, so what? I can't speak to traditional vs. nontraditional medical schools--I've never researched either kind, so other people can argue whether shortcuts are appropriate. Anyway, just had to get that off my chest.
    I completely agree with you. Even if 100% of medical students were RNs the nursing loss would be much less than nurses that leave for other causes. The opportunity cost for RNs is usually positive depending on the local salary. Preventing a nurse (or anyone) from advancement is unlikely to result in the nurse staying in the workforce.

    Interestingly the attitude in Britain is different. There are 4 PA programs starting in the UK and there have been PAs there for two years in trial programs. The NHS initially approached nursing and according the the NHS they did not want to participate. My understanding from talking to the physicians is that NPs there function differently than NPs here. I am not sure what the exact differences are but it seems they work more in the traditional CNS role. There are also expanded nursing roles where they can prescribe off a limited formulary. One of the concerns by NHS is that they would exacerbate the nursing shortage there. The target student there is graduates and researchers in biologic sciences and paramedics.

    The other issue that you bring up is one that I have been wondering about for some time. We know that nurses working as RNs that go to NP school do one of three things. They either continue working as RNs either part time or full time, go to work as NPs or leave the work force. It is hard to evaluate these numbers but more than 30% of NPs are not working as NPs. The question I have is what happens to DE students? They have the same three choices. The issue is that they potentially have less invested in nursing and in instances that have been seen here have no interest in bedside nursing. In this case if they do not work as NPs they are presumably lost to the workforce. This population is not really tracked but in a nursing shortage if a large portion never work as nurses or NPs is this really the best utilization of nursing education dollars?

    David Carpenter, PA-C
  13. by   veritas
    Quote from dianacs
    It always strikes me as odd when people say this and it reminds me of posts in a similar vein...first of all, it is probably only a very small percentage of nurses... ...
    i agree with you, except, in reality, they do select people the way i described. i was on the selection/academic board once and the discussions that went on about RNs becoming MDs were not welcoming at all. most RNs are against RNs going over to MDs and will try to create extra hurdles and obstacles for RNs trying to go to MDs. MDs don't particularly care if an RN comes over. so in reality, the problem doesn't really lie with the medical faculty but with the nursing faculty. there is a dynamic going on, and it's not a simple static thing.

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