Anyone heard of any NP to MD programs? - page 3

A girl I go to school with said that there is a school in Missouri that has a bridge program for NPs to become MDs. Have any of you heard of a program like this?? :confused: Thanks! Kitty... Read More

  1. by   kb12345
    Hi everyone,

    Thanks so much for all of yall's advice. I will be persuing a traditional medical degree. I had always planned on doing so I just wanted an easier way to do it because I feel a masters degree (psychiatric and mental health nurse practitioner, practicing in an out patient clinic) should matter. But....it does not. I have to take some other core courses first to meet the med school pre req's of which I will start in September then I plan on applying to schools in Massachusetts. It;s unfortunate that there are no programs for those of us who already practice in the provider sector of healthcare. It's almost as if we are unrecognized by our peers.

    Anyway, thank you all...
    APRN
  2. by   platon20
    Quote from kb12345
    Hi everyone,

    Thanks so much for all of yall's advice. I will be persuing a traditional medical degree. I had always planned on doing so I just wanted an easier way to do it because I feel a masters degree (psychiatric and mental health nurse practitioner, practicing in an out patient clinic) should matter. But....it does not. I have to take some other core courses first to meet the med school pre req's of which I will start in September then I plan on applying to schools in Massachusetts. It;s unfortunate that there are no programs for those of us who already practice in the provider sector of healthcare. It's almost as if we are unrecognized by our peers.

    Anyway, thank you all...
    APRN
    I dont understand. As a psychiatric NP, you can already do anything and everything that a psychiatrist MD does. ARe you trying to become a surgeon or what? Because unless you want to be a surgeon, med school is worthless. The only thing NPs cant do is become surgeons. Anything else they are absolutely equal to MDs.
  3. by   gauge14iv
    Quote from platon20
    I dont understand. As a psychiatric NP, you can already do anything and everything that a psychiatrist MD does. ARe you trying to become a surgeon or what? Because unless you want to be a surgeon, med school is worthless. The only thing NPs cant do is become surgeons. Anything else they are absolutely equal to MDs.
    We may do a lot of the same things but we don't do EVERYTHING by any means.

    In addition - I would love to have more in depth clinical trianing, a residency and more knowledge about embryology, pharmacology, anatomy, physiology, and so much more that I become more and more acutely aware every day that I could really use.

    Don't get me wrong - I love being an NP and have NO desire to be an MD, but I do wish our programs were more in depth on the biology and clinical side - and less so on the philosophical and theoretical side.
  4. by   MikeyJ
    Quote from platon20
    I dont understand. As a psychiatric NP, you can already do anything and everything that a psychiatrist MD does. ARe you trying to become a surgeon or what? Because unless you want to be a surgeon, med school is worthless. The only thing NPs cant do is become surgeons. Anything else they are absolutely equal to MDs.
    "Absolutely equal to MD's" <-- That is totally not the case. I am in the nursing profession and nurses should be given a lot more credit than what they are given, but I can tell you that NP's should never be equivocated or compared to an MD/DO's. There is a definite distinction between the two.
  5. by   kb12345
    Hi,
    In terms of seeing, diagnosing, and treating patients MD's and NP's are equal. However, as a background,nurses are taught to care for a patient in a holistic sort of way, we look at the entire patient, not just what is wrong for that particular visit. MD's on the other hand are taught to treat the immediate illness and move on to the next. Nurses are taught the value of therapeudic touch and I have personally only worked with a handful of physicians who even have "ok" bedside manner. Although we can both open private practice, I still must have an MD over me, as if I don't know what i'm doing and need a chaperone to be able to care for my patients effectively. Also, in terms of reimbursement, it's not 100% unless an MD signature is there (at least in Ma) We get somewhere between 70-90% without the MD sig. For me, I want to be at the top of my game so to speak and right now (again soley my opinion of myself) i'm at the bottom of the food chain relative to practitioners. In medical care there is a heirarcy it goes from the bottom to the top........CNA, medical assistant, LPN, RN, RN-specialty, RN-specialty, certified, NP/PA, MD........I personally feel that MD's are still "over me" if that makes any sense. In a hospital setting, like when I worked in telemetry as a nurse, I was typically in charge of the unit and delegated responsibilities to the other staff (CNA's, LPN's, etc). Even though i'm not in the same practice forum now, I still feel like I don't want to have to "answer" to someone who because I am an NP (sometimes) doesn't treat me like a peer because he/she is an MD, like we aren't on the same playing field. Can anyone relate?

    APRN
  6. by   lalaxton
    In terms of seeing, diagnosing, and treating patients MD's and NP's are equal. However, as a background,nurses are taught to care for a patient in a holistic sort of way, we look at the entire patient, not just what is wrong for that particular visit. MD's on the other hand are taught to treat the immediate illness and move on to the next. Nurses are taught the value of therapeudic touch and I have personally only worked with a handful of physicians who even have "ok" bedside manner. Although we can both open private practice, I still must have an MD over me, as if I don't know what i'm doing and need a chaperone to be able to care for my patients effectively. Also, in terms of reimbursement, it's not 100% unless an MD signature is there (at least in Ma) We get somewhere between 70-90% without the MD sig. For me, I want to be at the top of my game so to speak and right now (again soley my opinion of myself) i'm at the bottom of the food chain relative to practitioners. In medical care there is a heirarcy it goes from the bottom to the top........CNA, medical assistant, LPN, RN, RN-specialty, RN-specialty, certified, NP/PA, MD........I personally feel that MD's are still "over me" if that makes any sense. In a hospital setting, like when I worked in telemetry as a nurse, I was typically in charge of the unit and delegated responsibilities to the other staff (CNA's, LPN's, etc). Even though i'm not in the same practice forum now, I still feel like I don't want to have to "answer" to someone who because I am an NP (sometimes) doesn't treat me like a peer because he/she is an MD, like we aren't on the same playing field. Can anyone relate?

    APRN[/QUOTE]


    OUCH!
    Sorry I can absolutely NOT relate!

    First of all 'therapeutic touch' and having a bedside manner cannot compare to each other! I do know some nurses who have attrocious beside manners and some docs who are incredible with their patients. I have not seen enough evidence that therapeutic touch is of any more benefit to a patient than compassionate care.

    As far as being 'under' a doc and 'over' a CNA or LPN I truly feel that we all have a job to do that is equally important. We all have different jobs and that no one is 'better' than I am. I do not have the same training as a physician and I do feel that it gives me a different way of looking at a patient. Bottom line is, if we all work together to improve our patients health then we are all 'equal' in that patients eyes.

    Let's stop trying to catigorize ourselves along some kind of imaginary continuum and focus on our patients health.
  7. by   kb12345
    First of all,

    My opinion is my own and I am entitled to it and whether you agree or not is of no importance to me. Secondly, bedside manner and therapeutic touch can definately be intertwined. When I see a patient and they are havind a particularly difficult time.....understanding, comforting, a reassuring voice, and the power of a hand on the shoulder can go along way, so I don't follow what your talking about

    "As far as being under a Doc and over a CNA"....It's not about that, however, no matter what you do there is always a heirarchy. I don't think that i'm any better than any one else or visa versa. I want to be an MD because for me it puts me at the "top of my game" and opens doors that are closed to me as an NP no matter how idealistic you are about what goes on in the healthcare profession in terms of equality "in the patient's eyes". What about equality between practitioners? I don't know where you live or practice, but there is most certainly not "equality" amongst alot of healthcare practitioners for one reason or another.

    Opening up a private practice is an option I want to pursue at the MD level mostly because of less hassel in terms of supervision and insurancr reimbursement
    This conversation was never about a patient and what kind of care they receive so please don't attempt to turn it into that!
  8. by   sirI
    Let's stay on topic of NP to MD programs and keep the posts from becoming personal.

    We can agree to disagree without making it personal for we are all professionals.

    Thank you.
  9. by   kb12345
    Sounds good to me. In your earlier post, i felt like I was being attacked....so keeping the focus on what it should be on is wonderful

    Thank you..
  10. by   DC2RN
    Quote from kb12345
    Hi,
    In terms of seeing, diagnosing, and treating patients MD's and NP's are equal. However, as a background,nurses are taught to care for a patient in a holistic sort of way, we look at the entire patient, not just what is wrong for that particular visit. MD's on the other hand are taught to treat the immediate illness and move on to the next. Nurses are taught the value of therapeudic touch and I have personally only worked with a handful of physicians who even have "ok" bedside manner. Although we can both open private practice, I still must have an MD over me, as if I don't know what i'm doing and need a chaperone to be able to care for my patients effectively. Also, in terms of reimbursement, it's not 100% unless an MD signature is there (at least in Ma) We get somewhere between 70-90% without the MD sig. For me, I want to be at the top of my game so to speak and right now (again soley my opinion of myself) i'm at the bottom of the food chain relative to practitioners. In medical care there is a heirarcy it goes from the bottom to the top........CNA, medical assistant, LPN, RN, RN-specialty, RN-specialty, certified, NP/PA, MD........I personally feel that MD's are still "over me" if that makes any sense. In a hospital setting, like when I worked in telemetry as a nurse, I was typically in charge of the unit and delegated responsibilities to the other staff (CNA's, LPN's, etc). Even though i'm not in the same practice forum now, I still feel like I don't want to have to "answer" to someone who because I am an NP (sometimes) doesn't treat me like a peer because he/she is an MD, like we aren't on the same playing field. Can anyone relate?

    APRN
    I want to weigh in with my opinion. (It is just an opinion, not an attack.) You pointed out the differences between NPs and MDs. To me, the differences in day to day practice seem trivial. You have already worked so hard for your RN and your psych NP, and that is great. Now you are going to give up 8 years of your youth and hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans and hundreds of thousands in lost income to become an MD. For what?

    You will never get those 8 years back. You will probably not even make up the income over the course of your career. When you graduate, if you choose psychiatry, your typical work day will probably not change very much. I usually support educational advancement, but this move does not seem worth it. Again, this is just an opinion. Please do not take it personally.
  11. by   MikeyJ
    I am not an NP (I am merely only a BSN student scheduled to graduate soon). However, I do have thoughts on this subject matter. I am acquainted with many NP's and many MD's -- and I 100% understand the want to pursue an MD.

    I have come to find that RN/APN/NP's who choose to pursue medicine do so to perhaps not only advance their career, but to also prove a point to themselves that they have the capability to do pursue something so challenging. Furthermore, I think many nurses pursue their MD because it is something they wanted to do when younger, but instead chose to take the less invasive route as a nurse. Now, many years later, they begin to see the potential in themselves and pursue their MD.

    Yes, 4 more years of medical school with an additional 3 - 7 year residency does seem daunting to most. However, I would prefer to be happy with myself and my career/educational choices, rather than wondering for the next 7 - 11 years whether or not I would have done well performing as a physician. (As a side note, I know of an MD in his 50's who chose to pursue medical school in his 40's).

    One last comment I wanted to input -- regarding the NP = MD debate, I agree with NP's providing primary care or perhaps even emergency care, in some instances. However, I honestly believe that NP's should rarely provide any type of specialized care. NP's have a far better bedside manner (in most cases -- not all), thus I would prefer to see an NP for my preventive and primary care issues. However, NP's (in my opinion) are not trained to perform specialized care. I would prefer to see an MD/DO who spent 4 years of intense medical training, along with a very intense residency to treat a specialized problem. There needs to be a clear line drawn between NP's and MD/DO's. I think far too many people are putting them in the same boat, when in fact, they are drastically differeing (just compare the educational requirements and curriculums). Just my thoughts.
  12. by   yellow finch
    sistermike... I don't understand your point. If you look at specialty areas of care it makes more sense for a NP to work there rather than in the area of internal medicine.

    For example, there are about (in general terms) 5 reasons for chest pain. A cardiac NP is able to work from that in a mental flow chart and patient assessment to determine the cause of the chest pain and what treatment options are available. The cardiac NP would defer out any neuro, endocrine (except for dyslipidemia issues), respiratory, musculoskeletal, etc. to other specialists. They learn the basics in school then work alongside MDs to learn their special skill base. I'm not saying they don't apply their understanding of the other areas of specialty, but that they don't have to. There are specialists for every body function for a reason. If you look at internal medicine, the NP would have to have a broader knowledge base especially if working in family practice due to the large range of ages that it can incorporate. I spent time in clinicals with a hospitalist last semester and have huge admiration for their intelligence and wisdom. The amount of information they have to carry around and be able to practice it daily is simply amazing.

    This is similar to the reasoning behind choosing a Family NP program over say Women's Health or Pediatric NP programs. If you pocket yourself into a smaller subsection of education then you cannot span out and would not be expected to. If you choose Family NP and sometimes Acute Care NP programs then your knowledge base is larger and the time in school is generally longer.

    Many women prefer Midwives over OB/Gyns. This is a specialty area. Would you say the Midwife's expertise is less than that of a MD? Is a psychiatric NP worse than a Psychiatrist? Psych is psych. You learn the uniqueness of patients in clinicals and on the job. What about CRNAs? They are just as capable to work in the OR as is the Anesthesiologist. There just happens to be a shortage of MDs in this field. If we told APRNs they couldn't work as CRNAs what then? We fill a shortage and a need that is strongly in need.

    I once thought I wanted to go to medical school, but chose nursing because of the flexibility in areas of specialization while working as a RN and the opportunities to advance myself as I desired. At the same time, I work with two MDs who were once RNs who, after 10 years in practice, went back to school to earn their medical degrees. It's all in what we choose in our lives. I saw the length of time for school, the hours of on-call time, etc. and decided it wasn't for me (little did I know this wasn't true for all MDs). But I'm not disappointed in my decision to study FNP. And the reason I chose that program was so that I could span out and specialize if I wanted to.

    The possibilities are out there sistermike. You will find yourself with many opportunities to stretch your mind to its limits as a RN and may discover a specialty that you particularly enjoy. So does that mean if you decide to become a NP you aren't as worthy to continue working in that specialty simply because you didn't go to medical school? Good luck to you in your BSN program. Those were some of the best times in school! You grow such bonds with your fellow students that can never be replaced.
  13. by   caldje
    Quote from yellow finch

    For example, there are about (in general terms) 5 reasons for chest pain. A cardiac NP is able to work from that in a mental flow chart and patient assessment to determine the cause of the chest pain and what treatment options are available.

    5 causes of chest pain!?! even in general terms... not even close to only 5.

    :uhoh21: THAT is what the previous poster was talking about.

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