Why is it MEN seem to get along better in this field than WOMEN??!!! - page 10

Hello this was brought up to me so now I'm sharing it with you all, I had a new R.N. nurse come to me in tears because another R.N. treated and talked to her very badly when she asked her basic... Read More

  1. by   Stitchie
    Quote from bbear
    Bravo, Stitchie! I truly wish there were far more people who thought that way. Personally, I never quite understood how burning a bra and then donning a jock strap was any kind of victory.

    Here's a few tidbits of insight about us men for you ladies:

    Basically, we're rather simple creatures with very simple needs. Not altogether that different from an amoeba, actually. Feed us, flatter us, tolerate our flatus, and we tend to remain fairly content.

    But you're confusing us. We want to please you but we've lost track of what it is you want from us. You want us to be strong, but then we risk being labeled insensitive. So we try to be more sensitive, but then we are told we're being wimps. Don't forget, we have a short attention span and we give up easily. LOL

    In all seriousness, I do wish women would embrace their delightfully exquisite charactersitics rather than attempting to suppress them. It is those very traits, after all, that make them who they are. I am truly envious of so many of those characteristics (although I'll pass on menstruation).

    And didn't we already have a female President? I cannot recall that Hillary blew up any foreign lands in a fit of cattiness.
    So you're saying GWB did do? Sorry couldn't resist.

    I think of nursing as a profession, not a calling. I think that if more men come to nursing as a profession it will change the way that nurses are perceived. I think one reason men stay away from nursing is because of the stereotyped images of nurses: saints, angels of mercy, or sex-kitten pillow fluffers. If more men were to become nurses, then the images would change, the professional perception would change, and the wages would go up.

    Still, in this country, women are paid less on the dollar for identical jobs -- last I heard (and I admit I don't have up to date statistics) it was something like 75% of what men earn. I, for one, could certainly stand to be paid 25% more for what I do.

    Female nurses need to make choices that will enhance their professional images; those who engage in the backstabbing, gossiping and 'eating our young' do nothing to enhance that image.

    That being said, I've seen many professionals of all levels, (from EKG tech to attending MD) take part in many a gossip fest on a slow ED night. It's just human nature to be curious about others, (makes me crazy to think what they say about me, new person :chuckle ). My DH does the same thing; he's an engineering type, about as rational as they get, and he still gets a kick out of gossiping about his co-workers -- especially the few he doesn't like.
  2. by   pentua
    Quote from stbernardclub
    When I was in nursing school, there were 3 men in the class of 55. By the second semester, one failed due to cheating and one of them should have been thrown out for vulger sexist remarks.The 3rd guy was a gay engineer who was at the top of the class with grades, but I witnessed him leave a woman on a bed pan sideways because he just could not handle the situation. When I hit the floor in Icu with my first job, another bad experience with male nurses happened. There were 2 male nurses there, both from agencies. One claimed his seat when he came in and never got up unless he had to, he would actually call out orders to other nurses and asst. like he was a king. The other male nurse was getting ready to leave for graduate school, and it was not uncommen to clean up his patients rooms of un- emptied bed pans and bloody gauze.Now as for the female nurses, I was shocked to see so many woman hate each other and want to ruin each other over competetive reasons. i was so shocked, having had been a lab tech for 10 years and have worked with many people, to see how nurses could be with one another. I can probably count on 2 hands how many female nurses I have looked at and thought " now this is a good person who is a great nurse"
    I think what happened is, many go into nursing today for the money,and they sure act like they have.If your a good hearted nurse reading this who is hurt when you see acts of harm towards others at work...God bless you and keep up the good work.Someone will witness your great work and strive to be on your level. sandy


    Well it's pity you have bad experiance with the male nurses that you have come across. I don't think all men are like that. I once had a female supervisor who was very dictatorial at work. Gossip was going on unit about how little she has to say at home because of the authority the husband has on her. She in turn fully use her authority when is at work.
  3. by   bbear
    Quote from Stitchie

    Still, in this country, women are paid less on the dollar for identical jobs -- last I heard (and I admit I don't have up to date statistics) it was something like 75% of what men earn. I, for one, could certainly stand to be paid 25% more for what I do.
    I recently read a research paper that addressed some of the reasons why women's salaries tend to be lower than men's. One of the primary reasons they came up with (which surprised me because it hadn't really occurred to me) was because women are far less assertive than men when it comes to negotiating and/or re-negotiating salary and benefit expectations with their employers. According to this research article (and I wish I could remember now where I read it), women are many, many times more likely to simply accept what is offered them, whereas a far greater percentage of men will demand (and receive) more. This same article also stated that women are reluctant to use many of their employer provided benefits, such as flexible spending accounts and childcare subsidies, because they fear it makes them appear needy and weak.

    Pretty interesting, huh?
  4. by   Torachan
    Sorry about any offence.
    Last edit by Torachan on May 14, '04 : Reason: Offended to many people :(
  5. by   Torachan
    Upset to many people
    Last edit by Torachan on May 14, '04 : Reason: Upset to many people
  6. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    Quote from Stitchie
    Female nurses need to make choices that will enhance their professional images; those who engage in the backstabbing, gossiping and 'eating our young' do nothing to enhance that image.
    Really everyone needs to make the choices that are best for them all around, and take the image into consideration. But like you said, those that engage in the crap aren't enhancing the image.
  7. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    It's a matter of personal responsibility to ourselves and the profession. IMHO
  8. by   Stitchie
    Quote from bbear
    I recently read a research paper that addressed some of the reasons why women's salaries tend to be lower than men's. One of the primary reasons they came up with (which surprised me because it hadn't really occurred to me) was because women are far less assertive than men when it comes to negotiating and/or re-negotiating salary and benefit expectations with their employers. According to this research article (and I wish I could remember now where I read it), women are many, many times more likely to simply accept what is offered them, whereas a far greater percentage of men will demand (and receive) more. This same article also stated that women are reluctant to use many of their employer provided benefits, such as flexible spending accounts and childcare subsidies, because they fear it makes them appear needy and weak.

    Pretty interesting, huh?
    I agree. Women need to learn to be assertive, ask directly, plainly for what they want, and speak up about conditions that you wouldn't treat a dog in, let alone patients. I think that it's part of the perceived stereotype that women should be 'good girls' and not 'rock the boat'.

    One of the reasons that I hope more males get into nursing is raising wages. As previously stated. When women partake of the necessary behavior to negotiate wages, working conditions, childcare, they are labeled as 'difficult'. When they attempt to affect change on a unit, they are labeled as 'troublemakers'.

    Employer's love the 'good girl' who doesn't take part in the benefits that are offered to them. In fact, they discourage wage negotiations with such statements as "This is what all new grads are paid" or "we have a wage ladder and there's no flexibility in it". I've heard both of these from the two hospitals I've worked in.

    There may be other hospitals out there that aren't part of the salary caps that Illinois hospitals seem to participate in, however unwillingly. But when I interviewed last year, all the hospitals (about 5) were within $1.50 of each other, with shift / weekend differentials considered there was no difference in pay for off-shifts. I don't think that it's a conspiracy, but I don't believe in coincidences of this magnitude, either.

    IMO hospitals appear to be more interested in saving a buck than promoting positive working conditions. As the overwhelming majority of nurses are women, hospitals not encouraging staff to partake in convienent childcare (ie, on premises, flexible hours, well staffed) are shooting themselves in the foot.

    One nearby hospital I know of has decided to staff a nurse in a seperate sick kids daycare type setting because of staff calling off to take care sick children. Now you couldn't bribe your way into a job there, in any capacity. It was less expensive to convert a unused lounge/cafeteria and hire a PRN nurse than to cover those shifts with PRN or agency staff. Simple, convienent, forward thinking. It works.

    If as a profession we can choose to replace the vindictive, vicious behavior we exhibit towards one another with a collective voice about horrible working conditions, this will truly awaken the 'sleeping giant' of the majority of healthcare workers. But of course the industry is reluctant to encourage this because of the potential cost to those businesses. They literally have us where they need/want us, and it's going to take an enormous crisis to facilitate any sort of real change in the inpatient setting.

    Now, for those of you who might enjoy a consipiracy theory, here's mine: perhaps unit managers unintentionally, or intentionally, encourage nurses to choose the horrid behavior we demonstrate towards each other because it's divide and conquer time. Keep nurses focused on the bad we do to each other and they won't even see the horrible conditions we work under.

    Perhaps men get along better in this field because they have not been raised with this idea of 'not rocking the boat'. Men are also less likely to be single parents (although not unheard of) and therefor concentrate on wages/benefits instead of the larger picture, which makes them a more efficient employee for the hospital. JMO.
  9. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from Torachan
    caroladybelle

    I am glad that you took time out of your life to make a personal attack on me. I refuse to apologise if you did not find me funny. Believe it or not people are different and as such some do find me funny.

    I won't be subscribing to a student premed BB as I am a student nurse. Thanks for the suggestion though.

    I don't have a superiority complex, let alone a male superiority ego as you suggested. I don't think that I am better than anyone else due to my race, sex, nationality, university, football team, social status. I was recounting the whole episode to my mates and it had us all in stitches (see some people do find me funny). I am sure that LPN2Be2004 can be funny as well.

    Anyway that is my opinion. Yours are probably more valid than mine because I am younger, a man, a student nurse, not an american, white, live below the poverty line, have less than 50 posts (go on, pick the one that makes me the easiest target. I gave you enough ammo)
    Torchan,

    I did not pose a "personal attack" on you. Merely set you straight. Regretfully you have difficulty with that. LPN most certain has a sense of humor...there was no reason for you to dismiss her like you did. It was rather rude.

    I did find it interesting that you thought that you might be blocked...why did you feel the need to be accusatory to the BB in general when you could have questioned an administrator much easier and less publicly and received a proper answer?

    Mine is merely an opinion, one of many, no better no worse than any other. But if you feel the need for further discussion, please feel free to PM me.

    Carolina
  10. by   Hellllllo Nurse
    Quote from Stitchie
    I agree. Women need to learn to be assertive, ask directly, plainly for what they want, and speak up about conditions that you wouldn't treat a dog in, let alone patients. I think that it's part of the perceived stereotype that women should be 'good girls' and not 'rock the boat'.

    One of the reasons that I hope more males get into nursing is raising wages. As previously stated. When women partake of the necessary behavior to negotiate wages, working conditions, childcare, they are labeled as 'difficult'. When they attempt to affect change on a unit, they are labeled as 'troublemakers'.

    Employer's love the 'good girl' who doesn't take part in the benefits that are offered to them. In fact, they discourage wage negotiations with such statements as "This is what all new grads are paid" or "we have a wage ladder and there's no flexibility in it". I've heard both of these from the two hospitals I've worked in.

    There may be other hospitals out there that aren't part of the salary caps that Illinois hospitals seem to participate in, however unwillingly. But when I interviewed last year, all the hospitals (about 5) were within $1.50 of each other, with shift / weekend differentials considered there was no difference in pay for off-shifts. I don't think that it's a conspiracy, but I don't believe in coincidences of this magnitude, either.

    IMO hospitals appear to be more interested in saving a buck than promoting positive working conditions. As the overwhelming majority of nurses are women, hospitals not encouraging staff to partake in convienent childcare (ie, on premises, flexible hours, well staffed) are shooting themselves in the foot.

    One nearby hospital I know of has decided to staff a nurse in a seperate sick kids daycare type setting because of staff calling off to take care sick children. Now you couldn't bribe your way into a job there, in any capacity. It was less expensive to convert a unused lounge/cafeteria and hire a PRN nurse than to cover those shifts with PRN or agency staff. Simple, convienent, forward thinking. It works.

    If as a profession we can choose to replace the vindictive, vicious behavior we exhibit towards one another with a collective voice about horrible working conditions, this will truly awaken the 'sleeping giant' of the majority of healthcare workers. But of course the industry is reluctant to encourage this because of the potential cost to those businesses. They literally have us where they need/want us, and it's going to take an enormous crisis to facilitate any sort of real change in the inpatient setting.

    Now, for those of you who might enjoy a consipiracy theory, here's mine: perhaps unit managers unintentionally, or intentionally, encourage nurses to choose the horrid behavior we demonstrate towards each other because it's divide and conquer time. Keep nurses focused on the bad we do to each other and they won't even see the horrible conditions we work under.

    Perhaps men get along better in this field because they have not been raised with this idea of 'not rocking the boat'. Men are also less likely to be single parents (although not unheard of) and therefor concentrate on wages/benefits instead of the larger picture, which makes them a more efficient employee for the hospital. JMO.

    Excellent post, and I totally agree!

    BTW, I was recently offered a "promotion." I asked what the salary increase would be. I was told there would not be one. I was told that better hours and major holidays off constituted compensation for the promotion. I disagreed. I asked my NM for a specific dollar amount per hr increase for taking the job, and presented documentation on how it would actually benefit the company to give me what I was asking for. Guess what!
    My boss agreed, and I got the exact amount I'd asked for. I should have asked for more, dang it!

    I am very proud of myself for not just meekly accepting what was offered, as I have in the past. :hatparty:
  11. by   Energizer Bunny
    Quote from bbear
    I recently read a research paper that addressed some of the reasons why women's salaries tend to be lower than men's. One of the primary reasons they came up with (which surprised me because it hadn't really occurred to me) was because women are far less assertive than men when it comes to negotiating and/or re-negotiating salary and benefit expectations with their employers. According to this research article (and I wish I could remember now where I read it), women are many, many times more likely to simply accept what is offered them, whereas a far greater percentage of men will demand (and receive) more. This same article also stated that women are reluctant to use many of their employer provided benefits, such as flexible spending accounts and childcare subsidies, because they fear it makes them appear needy and weak.

    Pretty interesting, huh?
    This is a veeeeeeeeery interesting post. I guess as a woman, I should learn to be a bit more agressive. The problem is that so many times, when stating my opinions emphatically, I am perceived as being a ***** because I stand up for myself, etc. This would be why I don't do it so much anymore and have learned to keep my mouth shut in most instances instead of sticking up for what I think is right. *sigh*
  12. by   teeituptom
    Ive done very well for myself
  13. by   bbear
    Quote from CNM2B
    I guess as a woman, I should learn to be a bit more agressive. The problem is that so many times, when stating my opinions emphatically, I am perceived as being a ***** because I stand up for myself, etc.
    This brings up a very important point. There is a vast difference between being assertive and being aggressive. Being assertive is doing the exact types of things a previous poster mentioned--she stated her position regarding salary expectations, and she then provided research/documentation to support her position. Being aggressive would have been more along the lines of her telling administration that she knows what the position is worth, she knows what she is worth, and if the hospital was unwilling to pay her what she was worth in that position then they could just go find somebody else for the job. There is a difference between the 2, albeit a subtle difference, that may amount to little more than tone, inflection, and delivery. Yet these differences could mean the difference between being labeled a b****h or a jerk, regardless of whether you're a man or a woman.

    For my own part, I have nearly always found that a carefully contemplated response proves more tactful and productive than an immediate retaliatory response. Even if I might end up saying the very same thing. Why? Because if my response is immediate and expressed when I am offended or angry, my frustration is likely to be evident in my tone or voice inflection. However, if I merely say, "I'll have to think about that and get back to you," it gives me an opportunity to calm down, think the problem through, and carefully plan my response. So even if I end up saying the same thing, my frustration has been tempered so my delivery will sound much more polished and logical.

    There's nothing wrong with telling somebody that you need to think about something before you respond. That's not the mark of an idiot who doesn't know what to say, but rather an intelligent person who accepts accountability for their statements. Administrators and co-workers alike would much rather deal with the latter, IMHO.

close