This "us" vs "them" mentality.... - Page 3

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  1. Oct 1, '11 by
    Quote from SeeTheMoon
    You know, everything the OP has said here is true. We (students) need you (experienced nurses) and you need us. We will be the ones working along side you after graduation. Do you want us to know a little bit about what we're doing or get annoyed at us because we have no clue? We're not too slow to understand that staff shortages, instructor shortages, crashing patients, and your job in general make it difficult to teach and even delegate sometimes. But....how did YOU learn?

    This is the third post this week I have read with a majority outlook of negativity towards students.

    I know there will be no tears shed, but I think I'm just about through with the general threads of AN. I think the majority prefers we stay our little happy student selves in the student forum.

    And beast master RN, your info says you have all of 2 years experience. Think it's time you got over YOURself.
    Staff nurses do not need students. That is a big misunderstanding that I believe comes from the lack of supervision from a clinical instructor. The hospital is being good enough to allow students- the liability is there for them. The staff nurses are hired to take care of patents. The instructor is supposed to be managing the students....and yes- there should be communication with staff nurses- but NOT the expectation that they are for student's primary learning resource.

    No doubt you guys are getting ripped off. I've seen a lot of that frustration on the "first year" forum. ANd it helped me understand a lot. Instructors are satisfied with videos and a check list on a manequin- that is abysmal at best- and could be deadly at worst. Preceptorships exist to complete the skills base that school taught us during the 2 year programs of the past....and it's appalling to us older ones that you guys are thrown out with no level of competence in basic skills (a few have said they felt they got some of this).

    And yeah....2 years is still a new grad An old new grad, but hardly established
    Aurora77, cherrybreeze, wooh, and 5 others like this.
  2. Oct 1, '11 by
    Quote from xtxrn
    [B][SIZE="3"]
    If I had a good instructor around with their students, I'd look high and low for them to see if she (never saw a male instructor) had a student who needed to do a procedure (and my patients were ok with it) even if my patients weren't part of any of their assignments . As a patient I'd let my nurses know that i was fine having students 'practice' on me....the MOST they did was bring a lunch tray....seriously. THAT was their skill level. And these were nursing students in the last semester of school. I was giving all but IV meds by the end of the first month. Started orals the first week. WITH supervision from the instructors paid to teach me and my class. One instructor had about 8 students (usually less as the class went on). And they could see a fly sneeze from 50 paces
    :
    That seriously terrifies me. Luckily, I feel like my school has trained us better than that and the nurses I've worked with have been able to trust that. By the time we're done our first 6 week rotation, we're expected to be able to do all medications (including IVs), many procedures (ie, caths, IV starts, blood draws), as well as our assessments, care plan, and VS. Granted, it starts out with 1 pt and only gets to 4-5 during our preceptorship, but still....it's a little scary that what you're talking about is the level to which some schools are preparing their nurses. And I've been spoiled--I was on A DEU for both of my med surg rotations, and my clinical instructor has limited herself to 6 students so that she can stay really involved. All of this talk really makes me think that DEUs should be pushed more though. As least that way, only the nurses who are capable of teaching ARE teaching, and they are being reimbursed for it.
    xtxrn likes this.
  3. Oct 1, '11 by
    Quote from DL-SNUP
    That seriously terrifies me. Luckily, I feel like my school has trained us better than that and the nurses I've worked with have been able to trust that. By the time we're done our first 6 week rotation, we're expected to be able to do all medications (including IVs), many procedures (ie, caths, IV starts, blood draws), as well as our assessments, care plan, and VS. Granted, it starts out with 1 pt and only gets to 4-5 during our preceptorship, but still....it's a little scary that what you're talking about is the level to which some schools are preparing their nurses. And I've been spoiled--I was on A DEU for both of my med surg rotations, and my clinical instructor has limited herself to 6 students so that she can stay really involved. All of this talk really makes me think that DEUs should be pushed more though. As least that way, only the nurses who are capable of teaching ARE teaching, and they are being reimbursed for it.
    And it terrifies staff nurses....it's not a blind "dislike"...there's some real issues that the staff nurses have to contend with when new nurses don't know the basics. And it's not isolated from what I've read here and on the first year out forum.....THAT is why there is an "us" vs "them" perception- imo

    These were 4 year students. Waitresses with stethoscopes I never saw them use (don't know what happened in the next room, but I had a LOT of junk to mess with - and lunch was the big deal).

    What is a DEU (dating myself, I'm sure....the carbon daters are expected to determine my actual age later this week )
  4. Oct 1, '11 by
    Quote from DL-SNUP
    I'm really sorry you feel that way. On the units I've been on, we essentially take over as the aide so it's pretty much like communicating with them. And while the student may not be part of your permanent team, they are part of the pt's team. They're providing care for that pt, communicating with that pt. If you really feel like students are that much of an inconvenience, I hope that you're able to work in a facility that does not require you to step forward to teach a new generation of nurses. It's not fair to you or them.

    This is why I really hope the DEU system starts to become more commonplace. This is my first rotation of working with rotating nurses, and it's been frustrating for nurses and students alike. I guess I was just super spoiled with awesome teaching-oriented nurses on my DEU for my medsurg rotations. :P
    what is deu? my only responsibility is to the patients. the sutdents aren't like an aide. and their general lack of acountability makes my job even harder. i now have to supervise the aides and them.
    netglow, wooh, elkpark, and 2 others like this.
  5. Oct 1, '11 by
    Quote from SeeTheMoon
    . We (students) need you (experienced nurses) and you need us.

    I don't need you. At all. I could go my whole nursing life without a nursing student and me and the pt would be ok. We don't need you. You need us, that's for sure.


    It's time you really, really understood that.
    Anaris, ChristineN, Sanuk, and 6 others like this.
  6. Oct 1, '11 by
    "I do try stay out of the way when there is a lot going on. But it's hard sometimes, because this is my education. If I don't learn it in clinicals, I'll end up being a new grad who is vastly under qualified and who can end up seriously harming a patient because I was never shown something."

    Relax grasshopper! All new grads are underqualified. That's why hospitals make you complete an orientation before they make you earn your keep by being full staff. All things will be new after graduation and boards. No one has told you that yet? Seriously?

    I think you guys also have to realize that hospitals/management forces nurses to work with you guys. It's also tied to promotions and raises for most of us. Also because of staffing needs. Then nurses who KNOW they shouldn't or don't want to teach/orient students or new staff end up getting the nice well meaning student nurse. These may also be the nurses who just want to get started and promptly end their day. They already know their attitude is gonna suck and they aren't interested in putting on the sunshine face and playing nice.

    2) You guys are new to nursing. We live it 3, 4 some of us 5 days a week. When your 4 weeks are up, we then get a fresh new batch for another 4 weeks.( some nice/helpful and sweet..some condecending, spoiled, and entitled) You do the math. Depending on where you are doing clinicals, those nurses see 4 to 12 students a month, 48 to 144 per year! Plus families, doctors, new staff, administration, patients etc.. Surely you can see where I'm coming from.

    3) It is what it is. Some of my nurses liked, loved and simply disliked me. They ignored me, was rude and condecending to me and I survived it all. You guys will too.

    BTW, I personally love to precept and orient new students and new staff.
    Mrs. SnowStormRN, not.done.yet, opossum, and 2 others like this.
  7. Guide
    Oct 1, '11 by
    Quote from DL-SNUP
    Hm...that's an interesting thought. I'm really hoping that's not how I'm coming off to nurses, and I don't think that my peers tend to behave that way. If I ever told ignored my nurse or told her to find a tech and my CI found out, I'm sure I'd be put through a disciplinary hearing at the absolute least. I'm truly sorry if that's coming from personal experiences of your's with students--that type of behavior is beyond unacceptable, and I really hope it's not common.
    I probably wrote my post too quickly. You don't come off that way at all. You certainly don't come off that way in your writing, so I am sure you are someone it would be a pleasure to work with.

    I'm thinking back over the hundreds of posts about this and pointing out that what students might be interpreting as a blow-off isn't but some veteran nurses could be taken aback by behavior the student feels is merely assertive and proactive, the nurse coming from a very different frame of reference perceives it as overstepping. There is another thread active right now that is the embodiment of the culture clash I'm talking about.

    I do try stay out of the way when there is a lot going on. But it's hard sometimes, because this is my education. If I don't learn it in clinicals, I'll end up being a new grad who is vastly under qualified and who can end up seriously harming a patient because I was never shown something. At the end of the day, we literally depend on staff nurses. It might not be fair, but there isn't really a whole lot that the students can do about it.
    I totally understand, and I felt the same way, too. Although my first job turned out to be in a pediatric hospital and our peds rotation consisted of a very small unit filled mostly with tonsilectomy patients so I had to start from scratch anyway!

    So I guess what I'd like to know is what you'd suggest. If you had a student, what would be the best way for them to benefit from learning from you and gain skills as a nurse, while respecting your duties to your patient? I can't stand that to learn HOW to be a nurse, I have to be a burden to a nurse. Any advice you have on how to make the relationship go as smoothly and mutually beneficial as possible would be greatly appreciated
    Not going to punt this totally but I will find some links for you with many responses from a variety of people -- but I'd say the most important thing is to be a perceptive observer of your assigned nurse's unique personality and take your cues from that.

    Maybe she growls at you but mentions some aspect of the job that she loves to do -- ask more about that. I don't mind being asked questions - such as "what drew you to xx specialty?" He or she will be remembering something positive about the job and may want to share it.

    If he or she doesn't snarl at you right away go for it - ask lots of questions, offer to do things to save her time, tug on her sleeve and say "can I watch? can I? can I please???" Don't do that if you get a look of disgust -- or even a barely audible sigh . . .be perceptive.

    In looking through the archives I found this post that nobody responded to at the time she wrote it, but it is excellent. I would've written the same thing, so I requoted the list. Best of luck to you!!!

    Clinical advice for nursing studentsAug 04, 2007 10:23 PM written by tulsaL&D | 0 Comments

    Reading through some of these posts I see that many of you are in nursing school and I've seen a few posts regarding nurses attitudes toward students. I graduated from RSU claremore. I remember thinking as a nursing student that I would never treat students like I was treated by some nurses. I've been in nursing for a little over five years now and I'd like to give those of you still in school a little advice.

    1.) Listen to report.
    2.) Review charts of pt's you are assigned to.
    3.) Let the nurse you are following know what skills you are allowed to do with/without your instructor and which skill you are most interested in doing.
    4.) Do not sit in the breakroom and expect your pt's nurse to come find you for learning opportunities.

    The reason for these four tips are this:

    Once you've received your pt assignment you need to know as much about that pt as you can. Not to sound hateful, but I don't always have time to tell students everything about a pt. I know that not all nurses have time to teach you skills, but I for one do not mind letting students start IV's, perform straight caths or foleys, take VS, etc...
    If your nurse knows #3 ahead of time most will be more than happy to help you get the experience you want.

    #4 is the most important of all. My biggest pet peeve is when I have a student assigned to my pt that is never around. I'm not sure if RSU is still this way, but we were expected to be prepared and ready for anything. Sure if there are no pt's around it is no big deal to do homework or work on careplans, but if you have a pt assignment you should be close to the nurse working with that pt. If you are not around I don't feel as though you want the experience you are there for. The only reason you should not be at the nurses station is if your instructor or nurse says otherwise.

    I hope this will help those of you in nursing school and clinical rotations. If you have a bad experience with a nurse keep in mind that he/she may be having a bad day, or they may be unaware of how they are acting. Some nurses are just crabby. Your instructor should speak with the charge nurse prior to making pt assignment and hopefully know who you will get the best experience from. If you are doing 1-4 and you still have problems, speak with your instructor. They may be able to assign you to another pt or determine what the problem is. Good luck to all of you.
    DL-SNUP and xtxrn like this.
  8. Oct 1, '11 by
    DEU= Dedicated Education Unit. It's a system that my school uses that they're trying to get other schools and hospitals to adopt. Nurses from the unit volunteer to work with students. Typically, the nurse gets assigned 2 students and works with them for the entire rotation. This allows a trust relationship, so that students aren't constantly having to prove what they are capable of to several nurses a week.

    The pt load is also limited to about 4pts per nurse, so that he/she has the time to help the student one on one. Basically, the student assumes all care of the pt, and the nurse sorta follows up and does quick little checks here and there, based on the level of trust and the student's strengths and weaknesses. We also "prep" the night/morning before...which involves coming in an hourish early, getting your assignments, looking up meds/dx/labs, etc, and forming a care plan to show your nurse. It's essentially a mini preceptorship, with the responsibilities growing as the student grows. At the start of the shift, my nurse would sit with me and go over my plan of care, and then she'd basically just follow me around offering little suggestions here and there. I'm sure there was still stress for her, but she really loved teaching and the unit structured the situation in a way that seemed to help. Plus, I feel like I learned worlds more in one week on a DEU than I have on a non DEU unit.

    The nurses also get paid a little more, and they receive some training and benefits from the university. It seems like a pretty great situation. Plus, you really get to know your nurse well, so you end up with a huge advocate come job application time.

    Here's some more info on it:

    http://nursing.up.edu/default.aspx?cid=7744&pid=2959
  9. Oct 1, '11 by
    Quote from CCL RN
    I don't need you. At all. I could go my whole nursing life without a nursing student and me and the pt would be ok. We don't need you. You need us, that's for sure.


    It's time you really, really understood that.

    I do understand that. You don't need us as students. But you do need coworkers, and I'm sure at one point one of them will be a new grad who was in a situation like this. Students don't stay students forever.
    JRP1120, RN and NurseLoveJoy88 like this.
  10. Oct 1, '11 by
    So the DEU is the hospital having to clean up nursing school....an expanded preceptorship. How sad that something like that is needed.
    kids, Aurora77, and elkpark like this.