This "us" vs "them" mentality....

Nurses Relations

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I've been reading through the posts from the last few days, and I'm completely astonished by the "us" vs "them" mentality that is showing up between the nursing students and the staff nurses.

Maybe I'm idealistic, but shouldn't we be trying to work as cohesively as possible so that we can combine forces and provide the best care possible for our patients? It seems to me like we're both equally to blame for the issues that seem to be going on. On one hand, it seems like nursing students need to be more willing to contribute and gain some perspective, realizing that while the staff nurse should *try* to teach us, it isn't their main focus. On the other hand, it seems like a lot of staff nurses are going into clinical situations with a negative attitude about working with students, which I really think can only make matters worse.

Can we really care for patients effectively if we're not on the same page and being professional to each other? I personally don't think so. I think that in any customer service business, having issues behind the scenes like this WILL impact the patient. And I'm so tired of all the finger pointing, because both sides are making mistakes. As a student, I am more than willing to admit that I have been less than enthusiastic when asked to perform something I've done a million times. It happens, and when I realize I've done it I try to change my attitude and do better next time.

Instead of all this negativity, why can't we just try to learn from each other, and accept and navigate the limitations of the time together? Students can learn SO much from staff nurses, and (believe it or not) once in a while a staff nurse can learn a new thing from a student. If we can accept that we're all (hopefully) intelligent individuals united in the fact that we chose nursing to help the patients, and see each other as imperfect people who face constrictions based on our role, it seems like everything would go more smoothly.

I know that it's not all nurses and students that are acting this way....it's just incredibly discouraging to see such a lack of teamwork from the members of this community. At the end of the day, all the students of today will be your coworkers soon, staff nurses. And students, soon we'll all have students that stress us out and make more work for us. Can't we accept that and learn from each other?

Sorry for the ranting....I guess my point is this:

Let's meet halfway.

Students: The nurses are stressed out and busy. Try to help. Ask what THEY want you to do. Tell them that you understand they are busy, but that you would appreciate anything they can teach you. SAY THANK YOU. Realize that it's about the patient. If that means that you miss getting to d/c a central line, there is always next time. If it means that you have to help out what with ADLS, I/Os, etc...realize that you WILL learn from that as well. Be grateful for the opportunity to learn anything you can, and always try to be understanding.

Nurses: Realize that a lot of students *do* realize that you don't want us around. We know that it's not your choice to have a student, but realize that we're not there to ruin your day. Realize that most students want to learn from you and value/idolize how much you know. We're sorry that we're often thought of as an annoyance or an extra task, because all we want is to learn from you so that we can care for our pts as well as you do.

Communicate with us. Today, I worked with a nurse who had 2 pts and was getting her 3 admits all at once. All it took was her saying to me "hey, I'm super busy right now. Can you keep an eye on pt 1 and 2 while I admit these new pts? I'll come find you when it calms down or if there is something I think you could really learn from". Seriously, 3 sentences and I was able to feel like I was helping and not simply being ignored. I don't care how busy you are, but communicating with your team (and a student is a part of that team) is such a priority.

Like I said, maybe I'm just idealistic. But from my experience with other jobs and life in general, if we can just take a deep breath and do our best to make the "behind the scenes" dynamics positive, it will help our patients. Because at the end of the day, that's what ALL of us really want, right?

Specializes in Renal.
My last priority some days is communicating with the student. who is really not in my team. i don't have time to hunt down the students. and it is easier and faster sometimes for me to do it all or delegate to an aide than to ask a student to help, than supervise the student. etc.

I'm really sorry you feel that way. On the units I've been on, we essentially take over as the aide so it's pretty much like communicating with them. And while the student may not be part of your permanent team, they are part of the pt's team. They're providing care for that pt, communicating with that pt. If you really feel like students are that much of an inconvenience, I hope that you're able to work in a facility that does not require you to step forward to teach a new generation of nurses. It's not fair to you or them.

This is why I really hope the DEU system starts to become more commonplace. This is my first rotation of working with rotating nurses, and it's been frustrating for nurses and students alike. I guess I was just super spoiled with awesome teaching-oriented nurses on my DEU for my medsurg rotations. :p

Specializes in wound care.

lol time to get over your self

Specializes in Renal.
lol time to get over your self

I'm sorry if it came off that way--I'm really just frustrated with the situation and feel like there has to be a better way than having everyone ticked off when students work with nurses. I just don't see how it is beneficial to anyone, and think that we can all do better. I'm sorry if that came off conceited, it wasn't intended to.

unfortunately, staff nurses are having to complete the education and clinical experience the students are not getting in school (see first year out forum). it's appalling that they graduate at all with the lack of attention to detail from the instructors....those are the people the students are to be supervised by....the staff nurses are supposed to be "add on" information- not the primary instructor.

the nursing school 'instructor' is pawning off her job (not all- i understand that) or there wouldn't be so many newbies needing help with basic procedures. they see a film, do it on a mannequin, and get checked off without ever doing it on a patient . that is the problem imo. then, 75 questions on the nclex- and they're "professionals" ....uh- no. that does not make a complete graduate nurse. decent clinicals do, with enough concern by the instructors to know that they are turning out competent nurses. seems like a lot of apathy, which is really lousy for the students.

for those still looking at schools, take a look at the clinical time. yes- you need a bsn to move on in nursing in larger areas, and some other places who are shooting themselves in the foot if they are also complaining about some mythical shortage. adn programs typically have more clinical experience....you can always add theory. and going for more education is a good thing. (i didn't but i didn't need it- still did staff, charge, supervisory, and "desk" jobs...and had don positions offered to me --- no way i'd take that little puppy on- only as good as the biggest idiot as a don).

but get the basics before moving on....many employers will help work with you on schedules for further education that relates to your position. i know of one ed manager who would work her nurses' night and evening shifts so they could go to school...don't plan on that :) but there is a decent atmosphere for continuing ed- and they may help pay for it.

students are coming to the floors still learning the basics of nursing school- not continuing where school leaves off. it's not their fault- i get that. but it's not the staff nurse's job to finish nursing school with the new graduates, either.

preceptorships are a fairly new thing. because of inadequate schooling. when a lot of us graduated, we got a couple of weeks of orientation, and shown the assignment board. and we did it. because we got experience in school. what is going on now is bordering on fraud. imho. :)

i loved working with students when their instructor took responsibility for them. otherwise, the students are a lot harder to "take care of" than the patients. i don't think there's a nurse out there who doesn't want students to thrive- but it belongs in the lap of their instructors.

if i had a good instructor around with their students, i'd look high and low for them to see if she (never saw a male instructor) had a student who needed to do a procedure (and my patients were ok with it) even if my patients weren't part of any of their assignments . as a patient i'd let my nurses know that i was fine having students 'practice' on me....the most they did was bring a lunch tray....seriously. that was their skill level. and these were nursing students in the last semester of school. i was giving all but iv meds by the end of the first month. started orals the first week. with supervision from the instructors paid to teach me and my class. one instructor had about 8 students (usually less as the class went on). and they could see a fly sneeze from 50 paces :D

so, please don't make this about nurses not liking students....they don't like having to add the job of instructor to the list of patients they are responsible for keeping stable, and even help improve if all goes as hoped. :) "staff nurse" does not equal "post school instructor" for basic skills. yes- newbies need someone to ask questions of....no problem. but they should be able to start a simple iv (many have been told the iv team will do that- well, not in every hospital, and not in a lot of specialty units....lots of nicu hopefuls here, and there is no nicu iv team- the primary nurse does the ivs.....of course, if any nurse has trouble with an iv (which happens throughout a career) co-workers help....but they don't have to just add that nurses' ivs to her already full assignment.

a lot has changed since us older nurses went to school....and it's not good....if it were an isolated experience, this wouldn't keep coming up over and over :)

it's also the responsibility of the newbie to know her weaknesses, and apply to jobs accordingly....and that's not the ed, icu (of any sort), busy med-surg (of any bodily system), pediatrics, or anything that needs more than a lunch tray served..... know your weaknesses- it's the biggest strength any new grad has....and either find a preceptorship to finish what school robbed you of, or get ready to sink or swim....that's what a lot of us had to do- and somehow we made it :)

being capable, competent, and "comfortable" are not the same, and the last isn't required.

hang in newbies.... you will get the hang of it. and the older nurses will warm up-once they know you have some skills- and most will probably be glad to work with you and help you- as long as you don't expect them to do it for you.... :)

ok....be mad. this is my story, and i'm stickin' to it :D

:chair:

I'm sorry if it came off that way--I'm really just frustrated with the situation and feel like there has to be a better way than having everyone ticked off when students work with nurses. I just don't see how it is beneficial to anyone, and think that we can all do better. I'm sorry if that came off conceited, it wasn't intended to.

I didn't take it that way....:) It's obvious you want things to be better.

You know, everything the OP has said here is true. We (students) need you (experienced nurses) and you need us. We will be the ones working along side you after graduation. Do you want us to know a little bit about what we're doing or get annoyed at us because we have no clue? We're not too slow to understand that staff shortages, instructor shortages, crashing patients, and your job in general make it difficult to teach and even delegate sometimes. But....how did YOU learn?

This is the third post this week I have read with a majority outlook of negativity towards students.

I know there will be no tears shed, but I think I'm just about through with the general threads of AN. I think the majority prefers we stay our little happy student selves in the student forum.

And beast master RN, your info says you have all of 2 years experience. Think it's time you got over YOURself.

I'm really sorry you feel that way. On the units I've been on, we essentially take over as the aide so it's pretty much like communicating with them. And while the student may not be part of your permanent team, they are part of the pt's team. They're providing care for that pt, communicating with that pt. If you really feel like students are that much of an inconvenience, I hope that you're able to work in a facility that does not require you to step forward to teach a new generation of nurses. It's not fair to you or them.

This is why I really hope the DEU system starts to become more commonplace. This is my first rotation of working with rotating nurses, and it's been frustrating for nurses and students alike. I guess I was just super spoiled with awesome teaching-oriented nurses on my DEU for my medsurg rotations. :p

Not really......they're part of the school's curriculum. The patient is your lab....you get the benefit...the patient is kind enough to allow students....that's important ;)

Specializes in HH, Peds, Rehab, Clinical.
I think the problem is that staff nurses are being over worked. When I went to nursing school we had a clinical instructor on the floor. We asked the CI all of our questions and disturbed the RN as little as possible. Now there is no CI on the floor and students are assigned to work with the RNs. We don't get a lighter assignment or extra money. I don't think this is fair to any party involved.

But to answer you question yes you are being idealistic. But I like it, I was idealistic once and according to older RNs I still am.

Oh, we ALWAYS had our clinical instructor with us on site!! At MY school anyway. I do know our local hospital takes students out of a BSN program from the next state over, and those students are on. their. own.

You know, everything the OP has said here is true. We (students) need you (experienced nurses) and you need us. We will be the ones working along side you after graduation. Do you want us to know a little bit about what we're doing or get annoyed at us because we have no clue? We're not too slow to understand that staff shortages, instructor shortages, crashing patients, and your job in general make it difficult to teach and even delegate sometimes. But....how did YOU learn?

This is the third post this week I have read with a majority outlook of negativity towards students.

I know there will be no tears shed, but I think I'm just about through with the general threads of AN. I think the majority prefers we stay our little happy student selves in the student forum.

And beast master RN, your info says you have all of 2 years experience. Think it's time you got over YOURself.

Staff nurses do not need students. That is a big misunderstanding that I believe comes from the lack of supervision from a clinical instructor. The hospital is being good enough to allow students- the liability is there for them. The staff nurses are hired to take care of patents. The instructor is supposed to be managing the students....and yes- there should be communication with staff nurses- but NOT the expectation that they are for student's primary learning resource. :)

No doubt you guys are getting ripped off. I've seen a lot of that frustration on the "first year" forum. ANd it helped me understand a lot. Instructors are satisfied with videos and a check list on a manequin- that is abysmal at best- and could be deadly at worst. Preceptorships exist to complete the skills base that school taught us during the 2 year programs of the past....and it's appalling to us older ones that you guys are thrown out with no level of competence in basic skills (a few have said they felt they got some of this).

And yeah....2 years is still a new grad :) An old new grad, but hardly established :up:

Specializes in Renal.

If I had a good instructor around with their students, I'd look high and low for them to see if she (never saw a male instructor) had a student who needed to do a procedure (and my patients were ok with it) even if my patients weren't part of any of their assignments . As a patient I'd let my nurses know that i was fine having students 'practice' on me....the MOST they did was bring a lunch tray....seriously. THAT was their skill level. And these were nursing students in the last semester of school. I was giving all but IV meds by the end of the first month. Started orals the first week. WITH supervision from the instructors paid to teach me and my class. One instructor had about 8 students (usually less as the class went on). And they could see a fly sneeze from 50 paces :D

:

That seriously terrifies me. Luckily, I feel like my school has trained us better than that and the nurses I've worked with have been able to trust that. By the time we're done our first 6 week rotation, we're expected to be able to do all medications (including IVs), many procedures (ie, caths, IV starts, blood draws), as well as our assessments, care plan, and VS. Granted, it starts out with 1 pt and only gets to 4-5 during our preceptorship, but still....it's a little scary that what you're talking about is the level to which some schools are preparing their nurses. And I've been spoiled--I was on A DEU for both of my med surg rotations, and my clinical instructor has limited herself to 6 students so that she can stay really involved. All of this talk really makes me think that DEUs should be pushed more though. As least that way, only the nurses who are capable of teaching ARE teaching, and they are being reimbursed for it.

That seriously terrifies me. Luckily, I feel like my school has trained us better than that and the nurses I've worked with have been able to trust that. By the time we're done our first 6 week rotation, we're expected to be able to do all medications (including IVs), many procedures (ie, caths, IV starts, blood draws), as well as our assessments, care plan, and VS. Granted, it starts out with 1 pt and only gets to 4-5 during our preceptorship, but still....it's a little scary that what you're talking about is the level to which some schools are preparing their nurses. And I've been spoiled--I was on A DEU for both of my med surg rotations, and my clinical instructor has limited herself to 6 students so that she can stay really involved. All of this talk really makes me think that DEUs should be pushed more though. As least that way, only the nurses who are capable of teaching ARE teaching, and they are being reimbursed for it.

And it terrifies staff nurses....it's not a blind "dislike"...there's some real issues that the staff nurses have to contend with when new nurses don't know the basics. And it's not isolated from what I've read here and on the first year out forum.....THAT is why there is an "us" vs "them" perception- imo :)

These were 4 year students. Waitresses with stethoscopes I never saw them use (don't know what happened in the next room, but I had a LOT of junk to mess with - and lunch was the big deal).

What is a DEU (dating myself, I'm sure....the carbon daters are expected to determine my actual age later this week :D)

I'm really sorry you feel that way. On the units I've been on, we essentially take over as the aide so it's pretty much like communicating with them. And while the student may not be part of your permanent team, they are part of the pt's team. They're providing care for that pt, communicating with that pt. If you really feel like students are that much of an inconvenience, I hope that you're able to work in a facility that does not require you to step forward to teach a new generation of nurses. It's not fair to you or them.

This is why I really hope the DEU system starts to become more commonplace. This is my first rotation of working with rotating nurses, and it's been frustrating for nurses and students alike. I guess I was just super spoiled with awesome teaching-oriented nurses on my DEU for my medsurg rotations. :p

what is deu? my only responsibility is to the patients. the sutdents aren't like an aide. and their general lack of acountability makes my job even harder. i now have to supervise the aides and them.

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