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How high have you titrated levophed?



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No. 30
Old Nov 26, 2008, 04:42 PM
Updated Nov 26, 2008 at 04:53 PM by richard1980

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
Originally Posted by racing-mom4 View Post
Just out of curiosity---how high have you titrated levophed before? History, pt in with serious health history, admitted with CHF. Coded on the floor. CPR alone brings back a rhythem I come in at 7pm to find her on cpap with an et tube placed. levophed at 30, dopamine at 5, heparin at 9 and propofonal at 20. We attempt ABGs and are unsuccesful, fighting the tube and restraints, increase the propofnal and attempt art line and picc line. Succesful. B/P systolic in the 70s heart rates in the 140s. I cant go too high on the dopamine due to the heart rate, titrate up and down and can not find a balance. I take the dopamine up to 10mcg at one point. Dr insists verbally over the phone I keep titrating the levophed to get bp systolic at the 100 range. Can not be done, I call pharmacy to question just how high I can go, am told there really is no cap?? according to my drug book 30 is range. Eventually pt put on vent, lower the propofonal to try and raise bp. I eventually titrate the levophed up to 60!!! I am so uncomfortable at the 60 range I call the Dr almost in tears--told him I feel like I am treading water and not keeping my head above. FYI I called him when I hit 50 and still had systolic in the 60s. I had the pumps concurrent with 75ns behind the dopamine and levophed. These are running into her picc.
No output in over 12 hours even though almost 2.5 liters of fluids/meds combined in. Dr made aware of I&O. Only order a small dose of Lasix. Not successful. ABG's horrible! FYI patient full code and family even after 3 in depth conversations insists on full code status. I am literally going over my algorithms in the supply room in preparation. Dr tells me to tell the family this is it, this is as high as the drips can go. Pt is 38 yr old. Finally family agrees to no code status, but want to remain where we are at, leave the et tube in and leave the drips where at, but understand we will not be giving any more meds.

The patient passed away shortly after the end of my shift, I was still on the unit so I assisted. Very sad, I felt so frustrated like I should have done something but totally felt like my hands were tied. Plus just didnt know what to do anyways---I was in contact with the ER doc and he had her tele up in er so he could watch. I had contacted primary and heart dr several times through out night. There is something really freaky about seeing an art line bp of 48/43 and a heart rate of 120.

I dont really even know what I am asking for in this post---I feel like I did something wrong, like I should have been doing more, or maybe did too much with the levophed that high. BUt i just didnt know what else to do, So all you critical care nurses, feel free to educate me. I am a new ICU nurse. The learning curve is huge. I had the nursing supervisor on my back most of the night, she said i did fine but I still feel like there was something else I should have suggested to the Drs.
WOW! Hospitalist apparently doesn't know what the hell he was doing. He should lose his license. Just a couple of things....If you're running a pressor you should have a A-line, also you wouldn't have a prob getting ABGs. ABGs were horrible? Probably dialating too with acidosis, was it metabolic or resp? Push bicarb or change your vent settings. Dopamine at 5 is more or less whipping the heart than clamping down going to 10 was the right choice. It sounds like you were dry and the pump was shot and or tamponade or severe sepsis I wouldn't do Dobut maybe primacor though. I would've asked to dump in fluids (put it on a pressure bag) Epi, check Ionized Calcium or just give calcium, check a cortisol level, lactic acid, scvo2, Continous CO Swan, and post someone who knows what they're doing. Lasix was a horrible excuse for a order. Your pt was either cardiogenic shock or tamponade or sepsis. Also, I imagine you checked a Hgb, what was it and did you try dumping in some hespan? or if they're 3rd spacing everything Albumin?
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No. 31
Old Nov 26, 2008, 05:02 PM

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
What I want to know, is why the hell was the patient on CPAP? Good grief. The patient should be sedated and on CMV settings. Was there a resident in the unit with you? A doctor should have been present. That whole situation would not fly with me. If my patient is crumping that better damn sure be a doctor at the bedside with me. None of this calling back and forth crap.
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No. 32
Old Nov 26, 2008, 05:59 PM

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
Originally Posted by Michigan RN View Post
What I want to know, is why the hell was the patient on CPAP? Good grief. The patient should be sedated and on CMV settings. Was there a resident in the unit with you? A doctor should have been present. That whole situation would not fly with me. If my patient is crumping that better damn sure be a doctor at the bedside with me. None of this calling back and forth crap.
Yeah, definately. Sick pts never belong on cpap. As far as MD being present, yeah....he should've at least come and seen the patient. And if she didn't like his answer, she should've made the cardiologist come in from home.
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No. 33
from chani
Old Nov 29, 2008, 12:08 PM

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
Sometimes it isn't 'can we' but rather 'should we'.[/quote]

Oh boy now there is the killer question AND it terrifies me because I have experienced this ethical nightmare time and time again. AND the answer becomes less clear everytime
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No. 34
Old Nov 29, 2008, 07:39 PM

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
I agree. After 20 mcg/min of Levophed, you're probably not going to get much more of a response from increasing the dose. You did well to keep putting the onus back on the doctor for the low pressures. 2nd guessing yourself, in my experience, is usually counterproductive. Assuming an adequate CVP, perhaps you could have titrated the Dopamine up to 20 mcg/kg/min, but adding an additional pressor like vasopressin is perhaps the most you could hope to get out of that doctor. I'm not sure what his Hx was and the cause of the CHF, but I don't think flooding him with fluid was the answer. The amount given sounds about right. With that much Levophed, the problem is clearly not that his arteries are not clamped down enough. Had anyone suggested an inotrope such as Dobutamine to try to increase stroke volume and thus increase cardiac output? Again, it sounds like you did a good job. All we can ask of ourselves is to do the best we can. If we do that, we have nothing to be ashamed of.
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No. 35
from kouco
Old Dec 01, 2008, 03:39 PM

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
I work in the SICU and we add on additional pressor instead of maxing out on one and yeah what was the CVP reading? And did the decrease urine output come pre or post pressors?
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No. 36
Old Dec 01, 2008, 04:11 PM

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
Originally Posted by TomCCRN1991 View Post
I agree. After 20 mcg/min of Levophed, you're probably not going to get much more of a response from increasing the dose. You did well to keep putting the onus back on the doctor for the low pressures. 2nd guessing yourself, in my experience, is usually counterproductive. Assuming an adequate CVP, perhaps you could have titrated the Dopamine up to 20 mcg/kg/min, but adding an additional pressor like vasopressin is perhaps the most you could hope to get out of that doctor. I'm not sure what his Hx was and the cause of the CHF, but I don't think flooding him with fluid was the answer. The amount given sounds about right. With that much Levophed, the problem is clearly not that his arteries are not clamped down enough. Had anyone suggested an inotrope such as Dobutamine to try to increase stroke volume and thus increase cardiac output? Again, it sounds like you did a good job. All we can ask of ourselves is to do the best we can. If we do that, we have nothing to be ashamed of.
Whatever the case -- wet/dry septic/chf - dude needed a swan to figure out exactly what was wrong. I suggested Primacor over Dobut b/c of less side effects when he's so sick already. Probably could've used a IABP too. I still think he needed more volume....
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No. 37
Old Dec 01, 2008, 05:55 PM

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
Thanks. I agree that a swan would be very helpful. I'm glad you agree with me that an inotrope would be helpful. You are correct though that Primacor would be a better choice. The swan would tell us his SVR and if he needed a balloon pump. I thought that with red frothy sputum he might have all the fluid he could handle, but the swan could prove me wrong. Too bad one wasn't available.
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No. 38
Old Dec 03, 2008, 10:34 AM

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
Sorry for your experience, but hang in there. You learned alot from this patient, and recieved some very good advice and thoughts from the posts here.

Personally, I have worked on pt's that there was no limit to the levo. I've gone over 250 mcg/min--switched to delivering it as mcg/kg/min, added numerous pressers, inotropes, bicarb gtts, albumin, lasix gtts--even adding the lasix to the albumin gtt. Had afew pt's on two vents, CRRT with this mottley crew of vasoactive substances and afew made it, most did not. With these types of pt's couldn't and wouldn't have done it without adequate hemodynamic monitoring and a doc at the bedside.

I agree with the previous posts--good advise--was this pt wet/dry/septic/CHF--you reported to the docs and got only so far. Regarding the mode of mechanical ventilation--with a pt post arrest, deteriorating, plus this restless and aggitated CPAP just wasn't appropriate. WOB has a major impact on oxygen consumption and you started out at a dead run.

The only other thing to consider--maybe the docs knew something more and were not filling you in. Maybe they had a preconcieved point, were only going so far with this patient and were waiting for the family to come to terms. This sucks big time--leaving you at the bedside to fight the good fight, deal with the family and be left second guessing yourself. This does happen--some docs just don't feel they should be bothered when the end is iminent and the family in their opinion "just don't get it!" You get caught up in the gray zone of doing everything that you can or do you do everything that will work. They need to communicate to the nurse at the bedside giving their all, sometimes alone trying to deal with what is at hand and a family going thru the worst time of their life. What your docs should have done is to be there too.

Anyway, good post, good ideas and advice. Go on and fight the good fight Nurse!
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No. 39
from Cat84
Old Dec 04, 2008, 02:27 AM

Default Re: How high have you titrated levophed?
The highest I have seen in my unit was like 100..., with vasopressin, neo, and many others....usually we are asking for something to add or something else around 30mcg....
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