ADN or BSN?

CorazonDeOro · Jun 20, 2011

If an ADN was the "same level of education" then they would call it a BSN. A two year degree is the same as a four year degree???right...... This is the attitude of nurses who typically believe they know more than the residents. The fact is most of ADN's know what to do but don't know why they do it. The Residents understand this far better. I can't speak for anyone's work ethic, but a two year degree is exactly that a two year technical degree, for people who just want a paycheck. It isn't the same at all. The teaching staff isn't the same. The students aren't the same. The pre-req's aren't the same. Heck! the nursing classes aren't the same. Why would you sell yourself short to a second best education? To achieve only the mininum? This is what I asked myself when I walked out of WCCD's info meeting. An education is an investment not something to look for a "discount" in. This is your career we're talking about not a sale at K-Mart. You get what you pay for. If I was patient I would want someone with a four year nursing degree, not a community college student. No offense.

That is interesting since us "uneducated" ADN RNs take the SAME exact NCLEX as BSNs. We must be extra smart to be able to pass with such awful classes and teachers. My instructors at community college were all Masters educated nurses who have also taught at BSN programs, so yes they are the same exact teachers BSNs have. Let's see how far your attitude gets you in the real world where you work along side RNs from all sorts of programs. Btw I have a bachelors degree as well and the only difference between the degrees is the random classes they make you take to have a "bachelors" i.e. two years of pre-reqs and liberal arts, and maybe a community health rotation. But somehow I passed NCLEX in 75 questions without it. Good luck with your career, I hope I never work with you :)

And yes I am a new grad with an RN job at one of the bigger Detroit hospitals, so that ADN was obviously good enough. Oh and I did get an Extern position at this same hospital after my first year of nursing, so I must have done something the BSN applicants didn't eh?

From what I gather you haven't even started nursing school yet, which makes you even more ignorant. How can you have an opinion on how nurses are treated or how it works in the real world if you haven't even experienced it yet? Do you ACTUALLY think a physician will know or care what kind of degree you have? You will be lucky if they remember your name. You have a lot to learn in your BSN program.

Kobemuscle · Jun 20, 2011

Sounds like someone is very bitter on this subject, should have done your homework before embarking on getting a BSN. Back to the original poster, good luck and you will be successful with either degree.

Tommy2001 · Jun 20, 2011

Sounds like you guys are insecure with your two year degrees and assumptions. Detroit Mercy is known for taking U of M scraps. Two different worlds.

-Mr.BSN

777RN, BSN, RN · Jun 20, 2011

Tommy 2001, while I can appreciate your appreciation of higher education, I'm confused as to why the tone in your messages seems so condescending and antagonistic? What is your intent in posting such controversial posts among people with whom one day you are likely to work? Are you trying to convince yourself that you are investing your money wisely in pursuing a BSN program?

In this economy, racking up substantial debt of any kind (student loans or otherwise) may not be prudent, especially for the older, career-changing adult. Have you read the news articles about newly minted MBA and J.D. graduates with six-figure debt who can't even land interviews, let alone the six-figure jobs they were groomed to acquire upon graduation?

While the job outlook in health care is more favorable than many other industries, the economy has taken its toll on nursing and other medically related careers too. That's why there are numerous posts within these various forums lamenting the new-grad job market for registered nurses. It would be difficult enough to have trouble finding a job after graduating from nursing school; it would be even worse to be looking for a job with substantial debt looming over one's head.

Furthermore, because higher education is so expensive, the demand for nursing programs at public community colleges is substantially higher than that at universities, since CCs are uniformly cheaper. That said, after researching nearly every program within the state of Michigan, I found that in most cases it is far more difficult to gain entrance into the competitive community college programs, such as OCC and Macomb, than the university ones. Again, the reason for this is simple: supply and demand. More people are attempting the community college route first, for fear of university sticker shock.

You are correct in that an ADN is a "technical" degree. However, in the beginning stages of a nursing career, quite frankly, bedside nursing IS a technical job. Newly graduated RNs, whether from diploma, ADN, or BSN programs, will be doing the exact same tasks when they hit the floors upon graduation. It's only after gaining some real-world experience that the extra theory of a BSN program may (or may not) become of real use and when the nurse may have the authority to apply it.

Nevertheless, I do appreciate a well-rounded education and wholeheartedly believe that the increased general education requirements of a BSN program are of great benefit to its graduates. However, many ADN students have previous degrees (bachelor's and beyond) and have already acquired such education (and perhaps already have substantial debt service for previous schooling). Taking on more debt may not only be imprudent, but also impossible (due to federal lending limits, etc.).

Furthermore, an attitude that hints of superiority may later haunt you in the real world. Since you believe by virtue of degree alone that you'll be a "superior" new-grad nurse, your colleagues and managers will expect you to prove it ... on the floor.

Incidentally, since you believe that a higher degree will instantly make you a better nurse, why not go the direct-entry master's (DEMS) route? The University of Toledo has one, which I seriously considered, but ultimately decided not to pursue, due to cost and added distance. Instead, I will obtain an ADN and later an MSN (there are a considerable number of programs that will accept RNs with bachelor's in other fields after a few bridge courses) for less than the cost of a BSN. For me, the ADN+MSN route is a better financial decision, as it's cheaper, and of more interest, as I love research. Incidentally, for me, the university programs were my last resort. I decided I would apply to them only if I could not get into one of the significantly cheaper, competitive ADN programs.

If you (or anyone else, for that matter) are fortunate enough not to need student loans to pursue a BSN or direct-entry master's, more power to you! Going the BSN or DEMS route, in such case, would be the most straightforward way to prepare you for future positions of greater responsibility without having to, necessarily, head back to school.

Nevertheless, achieving RN licensure as inexpensively as possible has its benefits, particularly on the pocketbook. So, until ADNs, or diploma grads for that matter, are no longer allowed to sit for the NCLEX-RN, please don't knock them. Why perpetuate a debate that is as heated as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

Editorial Team / Admin · Jun 21, 2011

Thank you for keeping posts and comments courteous and professional, applying to the subject of the thread, the original question.

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Tommy2001 · Jun 21, 2011

wendy,

lol...i can appreciate your comparison of the debate having served eight years in the military. i agree with a lot of what you said but also believe some of it is skewed by your belief that you are on an equal playing field as a new bsn. my intent is to educate people that there is a substantial difference between the education of an adn and bsn. i don't look at how i spend my money when it comes to my education that will eventually provide me with a solid base to save lives. in your comparison of mba and j.d..... isn't even comparable. we both know that nursing and law are headed in two different directions. maybe for you it will be hard to land an interview because it is a fact....that there are some hospitals and units that won't even consider a new adn. let me ask you this...if an adn and bsn fresh out of school apply for a position who do you think they will choose? the economy has taken a toll and i like it. why? well it starts to put the pinch on new adn's. meaning positions will decrease and people who have invested in a four year education will eventually close the door to adn programs. this will happen. survival of the fittest. maybe not tomorrow or years but it will. for example look at the push for np programs to become dnp programs. it will eventually trickle down to the adn level. for too long nursing has been looked at as a job rather than a profession. why? the lack of respect due to an easy route. community college. community college has long been a stepping stone for students who couldn't achieve university status. yes, money reasons could be a factor and i agree to that. yet, overall that is the reputation and you shouldn't convince yourself of any different. you view the job market as being difficult. i can't believe how many recruitment and retention offices and extern programs i have already talked to. my wife is a bachelor's prepared l&d nurse of 12 years currently completing her midwifery program. at least three times a week her job placement office at her university sends her emails from headhunters looking for graduates of her particular program. what you fail to realize there is an alternate job market for those who take a different route. i am also sure if i completed my education at say.... yale.. then i would be privy to a whole different job perspective. yet, i'm smart enough to understand i shouldn't compare my education to theirs and i wouldn't insult them in doing such. i have looked into many bridge programs. vanderbilt has an exceptional one and is one of the top nursing schools in the country. a bridge program is not an adn program. it is a master's level program that takes an adn and brings them not only up to bsn standards but beyond to a master's level prepared nurse. i commend you on your goals but before you put msn after your name you will take courses that a bsn takes. what i'm saying is you don't just skip over bsn. i'm sure everyone on here has done their research and i'm a believer also that you have to choose what works for you, but in the same sense don't convince yourself that you're someone you're not. for example, let's look at the education and opportunities of the two degrees. i've taken all the pre reqs for wcccd at wcccd. i 4.0 all course work and never had to open a book except during lecture. you are catered to and pampered. the level of expectation in pre req work is not of university level. period. i re-took all pre reqs again and felt i received a much more meaningful education. now the difference in pre reqs. an adn for most programs doesn't have to take gen chem, orgo, biochem..etc. meaning they are not tested or receive the critical and analytical skills they need. ok. let's compare our opportunities. you mentioned research as being your passion. i'm currently working with a panel of phd's conducting research. i've taken research methods classes that have taught me how to not only properly conduct research, but also how to analyze data with programs such as spss to support my findings. guidance from our state's leading researchers on how to prepare my work in accordance with apa for publication. a community college adn doesn't get that...let alone understand its process. also, in an adn program it's in and out. meaning i have the ability to take classes or electives such as "men in nursing", "evidence based prac health care, "special topics""essentials", "pain management", "independent study (in area of nursing interest)", "research occupational health", "smoking cessation intervention", "stages of grief lit review" and as i mentioned research with faculty. as an adn you just don't have the well rounded education a bsn does. i'm not trying to be mean i'm just trying to be frank. in my opinion you have sold yourself short by choosing an adn program. why? well you could have already embarked a clear understanding of nursing research before ever reaching your msn. you look at a bsn as being a waste of money or an over paid expensive education. i look at my education as being priceless. my beef is not with you. our goals are similar but we are just taking different routes. my beef is with an individual who pursues an adn thinking she or he is as educated as a bsn. not even possible. why are there no community colleges or adn programs listed as the top nursing programs in america? you mentioned competitive. wendy competitive against what? fellow adn candidates? the competitive level at the bsn level is far greater. pre reqs are more difficult and more extensive. the level of aptitude is higher and the amount of slots are less. wayne state had nearly 1790 apps for around 40 or so slots. if you have a course repeat forget about it they won't even consider you. you're competing against people who have a strong science background and have waged through a tough pre req sequence. i urge to sit in on an a&p lecture at wayne state. dr. spranger's lecture material and expectations are far greater than any cc around here. i'm not trying to argue that every bsn that graduates is a better worker than an adn. my argument is they are better prepared, but what they do with their education is their own prerogative. my argument is we should close adn programs and increase the faculty size and student acceptance at the four year level. the compensation for nursing is very favorable in a sense to re pay loans etc.. the problem here is americans' generally want the get rich quick scheme or the "short cut". we have allowed this to infiltrate our healthcare systems long enough. we are talking about lives. it's not about your debt or your personal gain. it's about the patient. i want to walk in that room and be as educated as much as i can as a new nurse. i don't want accelerated programs or a pampered adn program. one of the posts mentioned the nclex. she stated her score as if it was some major accomplishment. it's a minimum requirement. this to me is the adn theory. just get by with the minimum and i'm good. i don't even worry about the nclex. an attitude of superiority is only backed by performance let me clarify my point. my better quality level of education and background gives me an edge to surpass an adn with a profound disadvantage. i do agree many look at an adn and bsn as equals but there are many hospitals, doctors and np's that don't. finally you mentioned as long as adn's are allowed to sit for the nclex don't knock them. well the only way to rid the nursing field of them and improve the quality of education foundation of nursing we have to exploit and debate. hence, the reason why this is such a heated debate among healthcare. good luck with your msn and research and if this seems harsh i apologize i just wanted to make my point as clear as i could exploiting the facts. i appreciate you being professional in your last posting i will extend you them same.:argue:

OB-nurse2013, BSN, RN · Jun 21, 2011

Quite the thread this is! I do agree though that we should all be on the same page when it comes to advocating for our profession. That being said this debate should not even exist, we should all want the minimum requirements in our profession to be at least a BSN. I don't understand why this thread has even got so out of hand. My aunt, an ASN prepared nurse, always told me the BSN GN's came on her floor more confident and better prepared then the associate's degree GN's.

SnowStar4 · Jun 22, 2011

This may be the case for you but not all. Sorry to seem harsh but it's offensive to me. Would you compare a person who has an AA in Business to a person who has a BS in Business? Of course not. Why do you think it is acceptable to compare an AA nurse to a BSN? An ADN is not at the level of education of a BSN and shouldn't be held to that level. Last time I checked a community college wasn't listed on any list for the top nursing schools, and try to get into an extern program at U of Michigan with an ADN. A smile and a "sorry you don't qualify" Stop trying to compare.

You may be misreading my point. I'm not saying an ADN is the same as a BSN. It's a completely different education. I understand the difference completely as a Masters educated professional in another field. An associates degree in my previous field (and most others) is nothing. Won't get you a darn thing. I know the difference. I never understood why a few healthcare areas are different. I'm just saying no the doctors do not know what you have unless you are an advanced practice nurse. Personally I went the ADN route due to money, got a job, and am now doing the RN-BSN for free. Yeah, that's the truth. I didn't go that route due to poor grades, inability to get into a university, or any other inferior reason. It was cheap, quick and easy, and it's not my fault that we all get the same job initially. Obviously getting the BSN is more work and a better more rounded education. I don't think anyone is discounting that. But an ADN gets the job done too.

There are three main issues here:

1. People seem to confuse education (ADN, BSN, MSN) with credentials (RN).

2. People need to be less condescending to their fellow nurses, no matter what their degree. You know who you are.

3. People need to understand that there are wonderful nurses of all education levels and poor ones of all education levels. Education does not equal intelligence.

There has been talk about making the BSN a minimum standard for many years and it has not happened. So we all need to learn to get along in the meanwhile.

PS: I had a couple classmates hired into U of M last year....with ADNs.

777RN, BSN, RN · Jun 22, 2011

Tommy2001 and Iluvpatho, you both raise good points! So, it may be surprising in that I do NOT disagree with the BSN becoming the minimum standard for registered nursing practice in the United States. To clarify my position, I believe that as long as the ADN route is available, why knock those who choose it, regardless of their reasons. Demeaning or devaluing ADN grads is a losing battle because doing so points fingers at entities who are not responsible for changing the entrance requirements to nursing practice and, in the process, creates unnecessary bitterness amongst people in the profession.

I absolutely agree that the job market is partial to BSN grads, yet even many of them are having difficulty finding jobs, especially in certain parts of the country. There are many threads within these forums to that effect. (Your wife does not fall into this group as she is highly experienced—and that’s a good position to be in, particularly in this economy.)

Similarly, I do not think that an ADN and BSN are the same. As I mentioned before, there are more general education and theory courses with BSN programs. My point is that added theory alone does not make a person a better bedside nurse, particularly at the beginning stages of a nursing career.

Knowledge of Modeling & Role-Modeling Theory, statistics and research methodology, APA format, and organic molecule functional groups won’t be of much help in the hands-on, bedside treatment of a patient who goes into anaphylactic shock or diabetic ketoacidosis. And, furthermore, in most cases, such (theoretical) knowledge can be gained outside of the nursing realm.

As an example, coursework in statistics and research methodology is required for many degree programs. I was required to learn and apply APA format, along with other documentation styles, in past professional work. Similarly, the former-chemists-future-nurses on these boards certainly have taken orgo-bio chem—at a much higher level than is required for most BSN/MSN programs at that! So, while additional knowledge is beneficial in its own right, plenty of BSN grads on these forums have themselves indicated that their programs spent way too much time on theory and not enough time on clinical skills, such as in this post.

Certainly, I realize that I won’t go straight from an ADN to an MSN. In my previous post, I stated that I would be required to take a few bridge (theory) courses to gain acceptance to an MSN program in the future. However, while completing those remaining theory courses, I’ll be able to take advantage of tuition reimbursement while earning RN wages.

A cousin of mine has an MSN from the University of Pennsylvania (UPenn), a member of the Ivy League. Despite having a master’s from one of the finest and most expensive institutions in the country, she has paid practically $0 for her nursing education, unlike many of her colleagues/employees who are saddled with debt.

Many moons ago, she completed a nursing assistant course from the vocational high school she attended. After that, she was hired as an aide in a local hospital. At that time, tuition reimbursement/benefits offered 100% payment. She used it to become an LPN and, directly afterwards, an RN, via an associate degree program. (She became an LPN first, so that she could earn more money while becoming an RN.) After she completed the tuition-free RN-BSN program offered, she got a job at the UPenn hospital as a staff nurse. That job paid for her master’s. She is now in administration, where she can use all those nursing theories she’s met along the way … without carrying any student loan debt.

Obviously, her path is not for everyone (myself included). Yet, her story illustrates how one can achieve educational goals without falling into the all-too-common student loan trap that plagues millions in this country. While it’s relatively easy to take out student loans, it’s not so easy to repay them. Most BSN grads with student loans will spend 10 to 20 years (or more) servicing them. ADN grads who choose to later get BSNs can do so in fewer than three years (often less) and largely at employer expense.

Incidentally, my cousin has told me that, in her experience as an administrator, some BSN grads are so “theorized to death” that they lose sight of the hands-on portion of nursing and often can’t comfortably perform a basic procedure. (She has said, though, that lack of clinical nursing skills for BSN grads is program specific. So, in the case of UofD or Madonna, this certainly would not be true, as both programs have great reputations. And, certainly, there are ADN grads with poor clinical skills as well.)

Nevertheless, having worked at all levels of nursing care, my cousin has tremendous respect for nurses who “can keep it real” and “get down and dirty” at the bedside, especially in her hypercompetitive, overeducated market that’s located in an area of the country hosting a number of direct-entry master’s programs, like Yale’s.

If I were sick, I’d want the nurse who is comfortable administering suppositories instead of the nurse who has memorized the finer points of Health as Expanding Consciousness theory, yet who would ask an aide to go beyond scope to administer the aforementioned drug. Furthermore, AllNurses.com hosts numerous posts from practicing nurses of all degree levels who say they never use or even consider nursing theory in the day-to-day world.

Of course, theory isn’t bad and the attainment of a nursing education should not be based on finances alone. Yet, in this economy, perhaps more students (older students/career changers in particular) should heed, “Take care of thyself first” —at the very least financially. Self-care is an important aspect of rendering quality nursing care.

For me, self-care in part means having the added peace of mind by avoiding the burdensome noose that is student loan debt. You can almost feel the stress that many BSN grads (and proprietary school ADN grads) have indicated in their posts, even after successfully finding gainful employment. Furthermore, recent news has reported a large upswing in the percentage of student loan defaults, which for a nurse can result in license revocation. And as taxpayers, student loan defaults are costly to us all.

So, in getting back to Kimberly6891’s original question, reading through the myriad posts here on AllNurses.com regarding the ADN versus BSN debate, one common theme is that most community college ADN grads seem happy with not being saddled with considerable debt. (This is not true for ADN grads of career colleges, like ITT and Everest, that can cost more than a private university and are often unaccredited by the NLN.)

After obtaining RN licensure, reduced-cost options for obtaining a BSN include tuition reimbursement benefits and onsite employer-sponsored RN-BSN programs. Nevertheless, there is no one route best suited for everyone. Let your specific circumstances be your guide.

PhD,APN · Jul 2, 2011

Everyone here, in my opinion, has valid points. As a professor, I admire those individuals who value higher education as a long-term investment for their future, and these individuals often consider nursing as a "career" vs a "job." With the push of Medicare & Medicaid reimbursement policy on quality rather than quantity of care, we as bedside nurses will be focusing beyond tasks (ie technical aspects of care delivery) which I will leave it up to you on how our current educational system can meet such a mandate.

I used to engage in this debate passionately when I was a staff nurse in an Ivy league institution in the East coast as we (BSN) have $3500.00 educational differential vs our ADN (5 ADNs out of 45 staff nurses in a cardiac surgery ICU) counterpart, but I finally got tired of it. What I do now is encourage prospective nursing students to seriously consider nursing as a career, rather than a quick, economic personal gain, and try to sacrifice a bit with earning BSN degree. There are some evidence that nurses who valued nursing as a career tend to report higher job satisfaction and low levels of burn-out; and these outcomes were correlated with the BSN preparation. Job dissatisfaction + burn-out staff = negative unit culture = poor care outcomes. (Yes, there are nurses who don't care about research and data)

Having been in this profession for 20 years which has been labeled as "the least and most highly educated healthcare professionals" is still sometime hard for me to swallow. I'm sure most of you are aware that all of our health sciences colleagues including athletic training professionals have moved beyond baccaluareate education as point of entry in practice. So, why can't we move fast enough? Well, its supply and demand (ie, chronic nursing shortage), funding, and politics.

I'm fairly new in MI, but I think this debate is more intense here than in NY/NYC. I know several VPs of Patient Care Services/CNO that they're goal is to achieve 100% BSN staff based on Aiken's research, which is well receive by their board of directors. There are 2 large hospitals in NYC that have already achieved 90% and 98% BSN (and higher)-prepared staff nurses. Notably, the University of Pennsylvannia health system has stopped hiring ADNs.

I was depressed about our profession 5 years ago, but with my recent involvement in health policy and attendance at the IOM, I'm now very excited with our future. Yes, it hasn't trickled down yet at the staff level but it is coming. I encourage the participants here to become familiar with the future of nursing campaign recommended by the IOM (seee link) http://www.rwjf.org/pr/product.jsp?id=44748 (national)http://www.michigancenterfornursing.org/iom.php (Michigan) and I let you figure out what initial academic degree we should be preparing our nurses.

FYI - There are universities that are developing a tool to assess the prospective students potential as life-long learner (one of IOM recommendations), and I'll let you figure out which type of academic degree has higher representation of "intentional learners" vs "random learners at life" and, figure out why we need intentional learners who can demonstrate higher level of thinking (versus task) at the bedside to meet the challenges imposed by the complex patients and healthcare system yet must deliver QUALITY care not quantity.

Any thoughts?

**RosesrReder, BSN, MSN, RN** · Jul 2, 2011

My opinion and my opinion only. I decided to go the ADN route in 2004 and then go back for my BSN. The decision came at the time because the BSN programs had 2 yr waiting lists and the private college I chose although more expensive, would deliver without a waiting list provided I got a great GPA and took all my credits there vs. transferred them in. I figured I would get my RN and then go back for my BSN.

It worked out as planned and I graduated in 2007. I have been working FT and 2 jobs at a time because of debt, being a sandwich generation child etc. Fast forward to now and I STILL am not able to go back to school due to finances and time. I just started a family and taking care of an aging/ill mother and helping my baby brother who just graduated HS through college (a lot on my plate).

What I am getting to is that I may not be able to afford to get my BSN for a very long time. I might never accomplish that. Employer tuition reimbursements are dwindling fast and college tuition is sky rocketing in an already fragile economy. Basically for me, if it isn't broke I am not going to fix it.

Every place of employment in diff states has been between 10 cents to 75 cents more per hr for BSN. I don't aspire to ever get into management either.

In my case it does not make any sense to go back to school, acquire more debt to earn the same amount of pay. I am no fool either.

I guess what I am saying is that if you truly wish to have your BSN then do it NOW and don't wait. It is easier to get it out of the way now than take a chance with going back to school later.

For now, my crystal ball says, I will always be 'just a ADN' :)

Much luck to you!

Laura3086 · Aug 16, 2011

A message to Tommy2001:

While I applaude you on your merits on becoming a BSN, which I am doing as well, there is something that you must know, and I mean this in the nicest way......... No one cares. When you are in a clinical setting, I can just picture you taking your credentials along with you, showing everyone how superior you are to them. Seriously, no one cares. They care about if you can do the certain skills and tasks necessary that could perhaps save someones life. Enough of this my BSN is better than your ADN nonsense. If you are truly in this field, it is because of a higher calling. The love of medicine and making an impact on a person's life when they are in need. I fear for your future patients, if you don't come to grips with this truth.