Hey,

Are we not getting just a little out of hand with this thread and the the other one which is running along a similar lines.
Remember nobody can assume from the written word exactly what is meant because there is no intonation or stress with the written word.
Why dont we all agree to differ until the next time.

madwife2002, while I agree sometimes we have to agree to differ, and that it's difficult to presume what the written word means, I disagree that it's gotten out of hand. I think it's been a good conversation.

Zoe, I can't believe I allowed that person to do what she did and just took it. What I wonder though is if I grabbed a handful of a female coworkers butt cheek and said the same thing, would my coworkers just laugh and agree, the way they did with me. Or would I get in trouble? That things like this have happened to females for eons doesn't make it o.k. It was a long time ago, and I was a totally different person than I am now.

Originally Posted by 3rdShiftGuy

Deb, I'm going to edit my post and erase what I initially said, which was basically a repeat and rewording of stuff I've already said in this thread.

I apologize for missing the point that you were saying there isn't a double standard.

And no, I certainly haven't missed the fact that 99.99999% of the nurses here, you especially, are supportive of male nurses.

I think myself and a couple of aren't communicating well, and aren't understanding each other and missing the point of what each other is saying. But I'm not going to spend a lot of time getting defensive as I've put enough two cents into it and I'd only be repeating myself.

You're last paragraph is disappointing. You've never been shy about speaking your mind. Why start now?

Because I realize I am sort of "crashing" a men's forum here. And I have ZERO desire to suppress their need to vent here, safely and w/o fear of my coming in here and "crashing" the scene. I guess I want to respect that sometimes people need to VENT and are not asking us to FIX it all. Does that make sense, my friend?

Deb, that does make sense. Often we are just looking for an ear, not an answer. I just hope I didn't make you feel bad for participating.

The question was to the men, and the question to myself was "why do we tolerate this?", not that we're unique or it doesn't happen to women, or that women are unsupportive. But why we as men let things slide. I asked myself that question over and over again in the years since the "buns" incident. It was definately my "maleness" that kept my mouth shut. Anyway, enough of that.

Originally Posted by 3rdShiftGuy

Deb, that does make sense. Often we are just looking for an ear, not an answer. I just hope I didn't make you feel bad for participating.

The question was to the men, and the question to myself was "why do we tolerate this?", not that we're unique or it doesn't happen to women, or that women are unsupportive. But why we as men let things slide. I asked myself that question over and over again in the years since the "buns" incident. It was definately my "maleness" that kept my mouth shut. Anyway, enough of that.

How to ask this without trolling...? I wonder if the offender in the "buns" incident had been another man--would you have let it slide? I know plenty of guys who would go berserk, and I would probably object pretty vocally, myself.
I've been pinched or goosed by female co-workers a time or two, although, it the context, it wasn't nearly as offensive as your mishap. Sounds weird, I suppose, but I suspect we can all agree that a certain amount of bumping butts and whatnot takes place entirely innocent in the course of an average week, and if such an occassion is punctuated by a playful pat or pinch...well, er, I would never have considered touching a co-worker like that, but still, I didn't feel harassed.
I do have several gay co-workers (of either gender) and there are times when inappropriate remarks occur between straights and gays, though generally without offense. In one case, a lesbian co-worker overheard a male friend and me commenting on a couple of unusually cute EMT's we had just seen, and agreed with us. Other times, gay men have made mildly flirtatious comments to straight guys they knew wouldn't object, and I once invited a guy I worked with to accompany me to a party as my "date". I am sure we both understood the quotation marks were there, and we were good enough friends for the joke, so no harm, no foul.
Anyway, I guess I'm mainly reiterating that even when a behavior is actually offensive (as opposed to one that could be offensive, but only if the victim was offended), it's a bit easier to bear when it isn't threatening, as well. When a man is the offender, one might not be as confident of being able to ward off further offenses, and so more apt to speak up.

Mike, I'm not a total prude. Gay, str8, male and female we all cut up and joke around. I wouldn't want to work in an environment were people are afraid to kid around with one another.

In fact we were cutting up the other other night at work when I was trying to make the assignment on and I started dancing, which illicited comments "I love you're butt, and I'm so jealous I don't have a butt like yours. Yeah shake that thang." (I'm 45 and that I'm still getting comments on my butt is funny). The context was pure fun and I wouldn't for minute think otherwise.

However, if body contact was made by either male or female getting a handful, then I would object. Today, I'm older and wiser and while I probably wouldn't file a sexual harrasment suit, I would at least stand up for myself and let her know it's not appropriate to touch the goodies.

To answer your question, I let it slide by the female and I would more than likely have let it slide had it been a man, gay or str8. Back then I was a newbie nurse, shy and didn't know how to speak up for myself.

[b]I would at least stand up for myself and let her know it's not appropriate to touch the goodies.

Mmmmm what can one say except all the female nurses who are feeling males nurses 'goodies' on duty have to be desperate, I wouldn't lower myself nor my professionalism.

Originally Posted by 3rdShiftGuy

madwife2002, while I agree sometimes we have to agree to differ, and that it's difficult to presume what the written word means, I disagree that it's gotten out of hand. I think it's been a good conversation.

Zoe, I can't believe I allowed that person to do what she did and just took it. What I wonder though is if I grabbed a handful of a female coworkers butt cheek and said the same thing, would my coworkers just laugh and agree, the way they did with me. Or would I get in trouble? That things like this have happened to females for eons doesn't make it o.k. It was a long time ago, and I was a totally different person than I am now.

You're right, it DOESN"T make it ok just because female nurses have had to deal with it for forever.

I can't remember, was this person a woman you had just met in a professional setting?

Gawd, if it had been me I would have been SOOOO embarrassed - especially if I'd been unable to say anything (and yeah, that was me when I was younger).

I would bet Tweety that you would have had hell to pay if you had done this to a woman.

Originally Posted by zoeboboey

You're right, it DOESN"T make it ok just because female nurses have had to deal with it for forever.

I can't remember, was this person a woman you had just met in a professional setting?

Gawd, if it had been me I would have been SOOOO embarrassed - especially if I'd been unable to say anything (and yeah, that was me when I was younger).

I would bet Tweety that you would have had hell to pay if you had done this to a woman.

This was a coworker, an RN, and it was in the nurses station. We'd worked together for a few months, I think, but she definately didn't know me well enough to do this.

I have to get ready for work, and so will make this short.

Originally Posted by 3rdShiftGuy

And no, I certainly haven't missed the fact that 99.99999% of the nurses here, you especially, are supportive of male nurses.

I think myself and a couple of aren't communicating well, and aren't understanding each other and missing the point of what each other is saying.

Absolutely correct on all counts. I have not missed the fact that there have been a lot of female nurses on this board who have taken a stance in defense of their male counterparts. If that were the case, this would be a thread attacking female nurses for "allowing this," and that was not at all my intent. In fact, I think the majority of nurses, both male and female, tend to defend one another, and don't sweat the small stuff (which most of this is.)

Also, I did not intend this to be a thread where I was just venting, nor did I intend this to be a males only thread. I'm glad for participation from all comers.

The initial question I asked was why we (men in nursing) tolerate this. I believe that females, across the board, not just in nursing, have become quite good at recognizing when good natured fun crosses the line and becomes demeaning or degrading (a lot more experience is my theory). The question is why? Why are males so much more patient in tolerating behavior that skirts, and even crosses the line?

And to a degree, I still think there is a double standard. The chest hair thread proves it. Many of you (Tweety included) said they didn't see the thread as all that big a deal (and neither do I), but no one has even tried to respond to my hypothetical thread in which the tables are turned. Should a large breasted female nurse be forced to wear a t-shirt under scrubs so she doesn't flash those things at patients when she bends over? And if that thread is OK, is it OK for me to come in and say I don't want her wearing a t-shirt, I want a chance to get a peek? And to further state that if that occurs, I might just forget about the "nurse-patient" relationship? If that were to have been how events unfolded, would you all still be saying that it isn't a big deal?

Really, in the end, this thread was meant as not much more than food for thought, and maybe as fodder for discussion for all of us. I'm glad it has provided that. (So much for keeping it short.)

Kevin McHugh