Why Do We Tolerate This?

[kmchugh]

You know, sometimes things have a hidden context. Sometimes, that context can be kind of ugly. When I see that, it causes me to wonder why we allow these things to continue. Hence, this thread.

Recently, two threads on this board have given me pause for the hidden context they contained. Both have planted in my mind the question "Why are we, as male nurses, tolerating this?" I have a few ideas of my own, but what are your thoughts?

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96928

This is the first thread, and it appeared in the male nursing forum under the title "Men's sexualality (sic) in Nursing." In this thread, the original poster questioned whether we, as men, were really able to put our libidos aside long enough to do an exam/procedure on a female patient without looking at her "private parts" in "that" way. Essentially, she suggested that we would be unable to do so. As I read the original post, I wondered whether sparks would fly. Not because I wasn't sure whether any of us would take offense to the thread, but because I figured that post would be rapidly reported, and yanked off the board. It wasn't and no ire was raised. Sparks didn't fly. No one even poked fun at the notion that we didn't have anything better to do than leer at this (or any) woman's "private parts." In fact, I felt the tone of most responses was almost apologetic. Why is that, I wonder? After all, didn't the post attack our professionalism as nurses? Didn't the OP suggest that we are nothing more than sexual beings, with no ability to control our baser instincts? Why did we tolerate this?

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90987

This is the second thread that gives me pause. In it, the original poster asks what is at least nominally a legitimate question as to whether or not men with copious chest hair should be required to wear t-shirts under their scrubs. When I saw the thread, I expected at least nod in the direction of infection control, or good grooming and the presentation of a professional appearance. Turns out that's not where that thread went at all. In fact, within the first page we were treated to some nurses' opinions about how sexy a hairy chest was (or wasn't), and how they wouldn't mind a male nurse with a little virile chest hair showing. And we all went along with the "joke." Again, why is that?

Now, before I am accused of being a humorless stick in the mud, let me say that I can see the humor in both of these threads. Both caused me to at least smile. At the same time, however, the first thread seemed to me to perpetuate the stereotypes of men in general, as well as men in nursing. We are unable to control our sexual urges, and should not be trusted to look at women without drooling. In the second, we are treated to what is essentially a reduction of male nurses to sexual objects. Why do we allow this, when our female counterparts won't tolerate the slightest hint of the same thing from men?

Consider what might have happened to both of these threads if they were put up about female, rather than male nurses.

In the first, suppose it was a woman who came up on the board stating that she didn't like her husband, the doctor, working with female nurses. After all, women became nurses just so they could hook a rich doc for a husband, and didn't care whether they stole him from someone else. I would guess that the OP would have been ripped a new one, and on very short order. However, boil both down, and the accusations are very similar. In both cases, the OP is simply suggesting that the nurse would be unable to control their baser instinct and act in a professional manner. In both cases, the OP would be suggesting that the nurse might behave in an immoral fashion because of that base instinct. However, in the actual thread, it seems to me that we are almost apologetic for the OP's perception of men. Why do we need to apologize for her prejudice?

In the second case, let's suppose that rather than chest hair, the OP had been concerned with large breasts on female nurses. Should they be required to wear a t-shirt, to prevent the scrub top from falling while the nurse is bent over, effectively "flashing" her chest at patients? Would that be an acceptable question? Moreover, suppose I posted a response to the question that said "Hey, I like big breasted women. If I had to be in the hospital, I wouldn't mind a flash or two, to occupy my mind." How long do you suppose it would be before I would be reminded (with righteous indignation) that the nurses were not there for my entertainment and titilation? How long before I was kicked to the curb for such vulgarity?

So, my question is this: Why do we, as male nurses, so readily tolerate that which would be intolerable if it came from us?

Kevin McHugh

[fergus51]

I don't think it's such a double standard. Did you not see the thread about women and their grooming practices in the OB/GYN area? And there are plenty of posts suggesting that female nurses are all kinds of unflaterring things (catty, we need men to save the profession, blah, blah)....

Personally, I just prefer that these threads get the responses that they get and we leave it at that. This board is already pretty heavily moderated and I don't think the mods need to remove every single thing that is at all controversial or we won't be able to post anything.

[kmchugh]

First of all, I wasn't really offended by either thread, though I will admit that the first thread made me pretty angry. And as I said, I can see the humor in both threads.

However, looking specifically at the second thread, I can really see where rolls were reversed, all the disclaimers in the world about a post "just being in fun" would not save me (or whoever the poster was) from a great deal of wrath. What if the thread was about women with big breasts, as I posted earlier? And what if in that thread I posted that I found big breasts to be pretty exciting, and if I were getting flashed by a big breasted nurse when she bent over wearing a scrub top, I "might forget our patient - nurse relationship. sorry...haaaaad to go there." (With respect to the original poster. I know the comment was not intended to offend.) Would that be equally as humorous? And even if you personally thought it would be humorous, do you really think all our members would see that humor?

Again, I'm not offended. Curious about the double standard is a much better description of my current state.

Kevin McHugh

Edited to add: Also, I'm not suggesting that either thread should be removed. Half the fun of this board is the debate that it inspires. I'm simply making an observation about one area where it seems that women have somewhat more latitude than men in their comments. In other words, why is it OK for a woman to verbally swoon over a man with chest hair, while a man posting a similar comment about a woman with large breasts would, to a much greater degree, be villified? And let's face facts. If I posted such a comment, how long do you think it would be before some female nurse scolded me, reminding me that nurses are not there for my entertainment?

[Brickman]

How did I miss that first thread. I would like to add that I have never heard anyone talk about a female patients attributes in a sexual way on our floor, but if one of the female nurses has a male patient that has been blessed, everyone knows it within the hour. Kinda makes me think that poster might want to rethink her veiws about who can't turn it off.

As for the chest hair thread, I see both the humor and hypocrasy.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

I don't think it's such a double standard. Did you not see the thread about women and their grooming practices in the OB/GYN area? And there are plenty of posts suggesting that female nurses are all kinds of unflaterring things (catty, we need men to save the profession, blah, blah)....

Personally, I just prefer that these threads get the responses that they get and we leave it at that. This board is already pretty heavily moderated and I don't think the mods need to remove every single thing that is at all controversial or we won't be able to post anything.

Good points Fergus and I receive them well.

I remember a thread out panty lines. What if a male nurse (not me because you'd never believe me) in that thread said "I think females should wear white pants, very tight, and black thongs because I think that's kind of sexy", or even "I find panty lines sexy". Do you not think there might not have been someone who took offense to that? How many threads have there been about nurses who object to the sexpot image of nurses in the media? That females feel this way, yet can stereotype men as being testosterone run wild, and sexy in their scrubs is a slight double standard when someone ojbects and isn't taken seriously with those objections.

And no, absolutely not am I suggesting that the threads be more moderated than they are. I'm totally against that, and have made my objections known from time to time when they close down a thread.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

First of all, I wasn't really offended by either thread, though I will admit that the first thread made me pretty angry. And as I said, I can see the humor in both threads.

However, looking specifically at the second thread, I can really see where rolls were reversed, all the disclaimers in the world about a post "just being in fun" would not save me (or whoever the poster was) from a great deal of wrath. What if the thread was about women with big breasts, as I posted earlier? And what if in that thread I posted that I found big breasts to be pretty exciting, and if I were getting flashed by a big breasted nurse when she bent over wearing a scrub top, I "might forget our patient - nurse relationship. sorry...haaaaad to go there." (With respect to the original poster. I know the comment was not intended to offend.) Would that be equally as humorous? And even if you personally thought it would be humorous, do you really think all our members would see that humor?

Again, I'm not offended. Curious about the double standard is a much better description of my current state.

Kevin McHugh

Edited to add: Also, I'm not suggesting that either thread should be removed. Half the fun of this board is the debate that it inspires. I'm simply making an observation about one area where it seems that women have somewhat more latitude than men in their comments. In other words, why is it OK for a woman to verbally swoon over a man with chest hair, while a man posting a similar comment about a woman with large breasts would, to a much greater degree, be villified? And let's face facts. If I posted such a comment, how long do you think it would be before some female nurse scolded me, reminding me that nurses are not there for my entertainment?

Gee Kevin, I should have read this thread before I posted mine above. You and I said pretty much the same thing. :)

[Ted]

with regards to how this bulletin board is moderated, i want to "nip this in the bud" before it flowers. it is mentioned in the terms of service that this bulletin board is a bit more "stricter" than others. the over all objective for this is so that all nurses can find this place a relatively friendly and safe place to visit, seek and share information and network.

so far, i've read a few posts on this thread (including the original post), about how strict or how not strict this bulletin board is moderated. as mentioned in the terms of service, there are appropriate avenues for a member to discuss such concerns. so if anyone thinks that this bulletin board needs more or less moderation, follow those avenues. but public discussion of those concerns is simply not allowed here. if needed, please re-read the terms of service for your review.

again, i just want to "nip this in the bud" before it flowers into a discussion about how this bulletin board is moderated. such discussions would be way off topic to the original post, and most certainly be against the terms of service.

thank you all for your consideration to this.

respectfully,

ted

[LPNer]

I am just a lowly female nurse and because of that may not be able to judge accurately the comments of the OPs.

BUT!

I think they were both way out of line and looking for an argument!

Personally, I would much rather see a guys chest hair peaking out of his scrubs than to see a womans butt jiggle because she chooses to wear a thong.

And no, chest hair does not affect me sexually one way or the other. I truly am one of those old nurses (28 years) who just can't get excited at the site of a body, any body. Seen way too many of them I guess.

But a jiggling butt, that's just tacky, they look like they are advertising the wairs.

Yep, I've put my seatbelt on to prepare for the atack! LOL

[madwife2002, BSN, RN]

I am just a lowly female nurse and because of that may not be able to judge accurately the comments of the OPs.

BUT!

I think they were both way out of line and looking for an argument!

Personally, I would much rather see a guys chest hair peaking out of his scrubs than to see a womans butt jiggle because she chooses to wear a thong.

And no, chest hair does not affect me sexually one way or the other. I truly am one of those old nurses (28 years) who just can't get excited at the site of a body, any body. Seen way too many of them I guess.

But a jiggling butt, that's just tacky, they look like they are advertising the wairs.

Yep, I've put my seatbelt on to prepare for the atack! LOL

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I am staying in the middle for once and not committing myself to either side, but I must just say any form of harressment I cant and dont agree with

[caroladybelle, BSN, RN]

You know, sometimes things have a hidden context. Sometimes, that context can be kind of ugly.

No one even poked fun at the notion that we didn't have anything better to do than leer at this (or any) woman's "private parts." In fact, I felt the tone of most responses was almost apologetic. Why is that, I wonder? After all, didn't the post attack our professionalism as nurses? Didn't the OP suggest that we are nothing more than sexual beings, with no ability to control our baser instincts? Why did we tolerate this?

Consider what might have happened to both of these threads if they were put up about female, rather than male nurses.

Actually Kevin, you are incorrect on this. If you look, you will note that I did give a pithy but honest answer to the OP, that she considered sarcastic. And it was most certainly not apologetic.

And female nurses routinely put up with inappropriate comments on their alleged undue witchiness on this BB. If there is a thread regarding "nurses eating young", "mean coworkers gossiping", "why the poor pay rates", frequently the female witchiness factor comes up. And those threads are not pulled.

Witness Dr. Pill, uhhh Phil, and his episode with "Nurses just work until they can marry an MD, and never work again...even if it means stealing him".

Females get knocked on, too.

[UM Review RN, ASN, RN]

It upsets me when women get upset about men flirting with them but it's ok for them to do rude, sexually harassing type things to men.

It only plays on the stereotype that all men always want sex all the time.

I'm thinking of a male coworker here who was definitely harassed sexually who was always told it was "all in fun."

True, women are usually the victims, not the perps. But still, women can and do victimize men. The strange thing is that most would deny that they were doing or saying offensive things because they had no intention of forcing themselves on the man physically.

But it doesn't work like that. Unwelcome advances are unwelcome advances to the victim, and just having fun to the perpetrator.

We need to stop and think about what we say and how we behave.

[SmilingBluEyes]

Actually Kevin, you are incorrect on this. If you look, you will note that I did give a pithy but honest answer to the OP, that she considered sarcastic. And it was most certainly not apologetic.

And female nurses routinely put up with inappropriate comments on their alleged undue witchiness on this BB. If there is a thread regarding "nurses eating young", "mean coworkers gossiping", "why the poor pay rates", frequently the female witchiness factor comes up. And those threads are not pulled.

Witness Dr. Pill, uhhh Phil, and his episode with "Nurses just work until they can marry an MD, and never work again...even if it means stealing him".

Females get knocked on, too.

Thank you. And even when I tried to say I did not think nursing is in the state it is due to being primarily female, I was eaten alive by both male and female posters on the boards. I am frankly very tired of hearing how nursing is "in the stone age" or perceived "weak" due to the female factor. I tire of hearing how women are why nursing eats its young, etc. When I try to point out the same sort of things happen in testosterone-loaded careers like the military, I am either dismissed or told I am mistaken.

So you see, it goes both ways. I wish in the year 2005, we can get past gender issues. Just look. Now there is a thread about whether patients should get to choose to refuse LPN/CNA care in favor of RN only care and someone turned it into a gender issue fast as you can say "sexual harassment". I can't get why we can't move past it, myself. That we even have to have these discussions really blows me away.

Anyone who knows me here, knows I am a HUGE supporter of men in nursing. I am sorry other women seem not to be. Sometimes, we can be our own worst enemy as nurses, male or female. All we can do is correct stereotyping and be sensitive when issues do come up. I am sorry if I came across as blowing off your concerns earlier in my prior post. I can see what you mean. But it's not just men taking a bad rap, as you know.

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

I didn't see the hairy chest thread, but I did see the one that was closed about sexuality and female pts. I wasn't as offended as some. I'm finishing up my Maternity course, this week, so I've been confronting the issue a good bit, lately. Not in the sense of getting all hot and bothered, but the general awkwardness. I can be surprisingly bold with women my age and older, but I get pretty tongue-tied with young women of child-bearing age. (My next class is pediatrics, and I dearly hope I won't be looking at any lady partss, there.)

Anyway, I think that OP had a reasonable question, even if it was badly put. How do we "turn off" our sexuality. The answer is pretty obvious to you experienced nurses: professionalism, just like our female peers. To this student, I'm usually thinking, "Oh, Lord, please don't let me screw up." I recently got to do my first IM injections, and I was way too busy locating injection sites and remembering to aspirate to admire tushies. Driving home, afterward, it struck me as funny that I was a little giddy over getting to "do something" and not really a bit aroused, sexually. Of course, I'm not a kid, anymore, but I think my younger classmates aren't that different. To make a long story short, I've decided that nursing is way too intimate to be sexy.

I won't comment a lot on the hairy chests, since I didn't read it, but slightly off-color remarks are not at all uncommon at my job, and people are rarely offended. I've heard things that would make my Nurse Manager faint, and I have said things that would make my nurse manager faint. You get a feeling pretty quickly for who enjoys a flirty remark and who is offended, and you behave accordingly. I can't think of a single female co-worker who would object if I said her hair looked nice, but there are several to whom I would not say anything like, "Those are nice panties I'm seeing through your uniform." But I can think of several others who'd say, "I'm glad you like them."

(I have never actually said that to anyone, by the way.)

So, why do we tolerate this? Partly, I think it seems unmanly to complain, but more to the point, I don't think we are nearly as threatened. If a woman were to tell me, "Your chest hair is making me hot," it would never occur to me she might rape me in the parking lot, later. You don't hear much about women as sexual predators, and even if you did, they would have to pick on really small guys. If a woman gets angry with me, I'm really not concerned that she might beat me up, but if a man is angry with me, I'm at least aware of the potential for physical violence.

Awhile back, I was chastened rather roundly for an inappropriate comment on these boards, which I edited out. What I said wasn't so horrible, but it was in the wrong context--it was too familiar for the company of people I don't really know well. Female friends at work would have chuckled and nodded over the same comment, but relative strangers were offended, and had a right to be. In that sense, I suppose one has a right to be offended over the chest hair comment. Certainly, no one who was offended should be accused of lacking a sense of humor. I doubt that I would be offended, but I respect the right of anyone who was to say so. My guess is that more guys are annoyed because they can talk about our chests and we can't talk about theirs than are actually offended by the remark. Maybe, in the end, it's really nothing more complicated than that we enjoy being "sex objects".

No offense intended to anybody

P.S. I may have been mistaken when I said I wouldn't comment a lot.