Latest Comments by MeggieA

MeggieA 684 Views

Joined Jan 24, '13. Posts: 25 (32% Liked) Likes: 13

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  • 4
    wooh, brandy1017, hope3456, and 1 other like this.

    Of course it is.There is absolutely no other way it can ever be safe, now that corporations and profits are the ruling factors.

  • 0

    Quote from MunoRN
    Not applicable? It's the same rationale. And yes, it is surprising that those so willing to sacrifice patient safety to make a questionable supported point about personal autonomy managed to graduate from Nursing School.

    Yes, handwashing (ie hand hygiene) is strictly monitored in many hospitals, we have people that just follow people around making sure they do this, and yes it's absolutely expected that this is done between patients, this includes everyone, not just Nurses.

    Your first six words started off good.Your opinion. But why did it have to turn nasty with the next sentence? Quite an affront to all those kind,caring,dedicated nurses who "managed" to graduate from nursing school and have worked their b.... off,not to mention the numerous other sacrifices GIVEN in the name of their job.

    How can you discount those nurses who have been in the field-some for YEARS? The flu has been around for YEARS and so has the vaccine and I do not EVER recall a PUSH such as we are seeing THIS year for mandated vaccinations,threats,and of course that guilt inducing term "for patient safety"-really?I do not fall for that one for a minute.

    For me,the rules changed fairly quickly long AFTER I had been working for my employer.I was not a new hire coming in KNOWING upfront there was a mandate in place therefore giving me the option to look at other facilities without mandates. I believe it forced alot of long term employed nurses to have to make some hard decisions on just what they will sacrifice.

    The flu has been around for YEARS as has flu vaccines-YEARS.I'll keep my personal autonomy over personal enslavement.

    We,as ADULTS,can agree to disagree WITHOUT being rude or demeaning to each other.

  • 0

    Quote from olddragger
    mariebailey --with all due respect, that comment was not called for.

    I think the people posting/reading this thread are NOT psychotic, paranoid or members of a radical group. I dont think anyone is wearing a tin foil hat. By the way-- I think you mean aluminum foil hat? They don't make "tin foil" anymore........

    I think people posting here have concerns and are voicing those over a free internet forum consisting of fellow professionals.
    Yes--we do get off topic sometimes--its an internet forum----!
    yes--some of us to feel like we have no say so in some of the decisions that others make that heavily influence our lives. Decisions that don't make any sense to us.

    The focus here is the mandatory flu vaccination. If you have been following developments concerning this mandate I think you will begin to see that the hospitals that have acted interdependently in making this mandate, are beginning to see that perhaps that wasn't the best thing to do.

    Just because others don't agree with your pro flu vaccination beliefs doesnt mean you have to become disrespectful.

    What a wonderful response to such an immature grade school post. If I were to respond to her it most definitely wouldn't be a warm and cuddly read.

  • 0

    Quote from olddragger
    i am sorry for your situation Jenni--but I want to give you kudos for your stand and your actions.
    THIS WILL BE AN INTERESTING CASE!!
    I retired instead of continuing--so I really cant do what you have done, but I agree hospitals are standing on shaky legal ground.
    The hospital I retired from has started to even cancel surgeries on the Dr's ( independent contractors) that have not had the flu shot! Dr's are starting to get angry. Perhaps that will be the catalyst that is needed for logical minds to prevail.
    Please keep us informed of your situation and I will be willing to sign a petition etc if needed? Anything I can do to help.

    I realized you addressed your response to Jennie and can only surmite tht she too have a case over something.I am glad to hear that.Also,I pray and hope everyday for some catalyst that will take hold and not let go until we do prevail.Take care.

  • 0

    Quote from morte
    You are aware that OSHA will not get behind mandating the flu shot, yes?

    YES, but NOT YET anyway. Big Pharma is gaining more and more influence over the research in OCCUPATIONAL epidemiology and pharmacoepidemiology. Very unsettling to me.

  • 0

    Quote from Garethaus
    PalmHarbourMom - the thing is, I am not set in my views. Show me arguments enough to erase reasonable doubt and I will change my view. My goal is directed toward patient health. And I certainly have reason for reasonable doubt regarding vaccines. It seems every day I am reading about major problems affecting lots of people related to vaccine side effects. Telling me that evidence is not there is not opening your eyes.
    Just so you know,and maybe it doesn't matter, but I am in total agreement with you here. Take care.

  • 0

    Quote from olddragger
    Nursing by profession is at times too complacent. Why do ya'll think that occurs?
    What single patient focused standard has Nursing on a national level said they will not do? I am not speaking about the general statements--we will not do anything not ethical etc.
    What specific thing has Nursing on a national level taken a stand on? Nurse to patient ratios--no? Proper infection control techniques enforced--no. Working mandatory overtime--no. Working too long of a shift ( 16 hrs+) --no. Professional autonomy --no ( I know of nursing departments being managed by non nurses, nursing policies developed without nursing input--etc).
    Unfortunately Unions are the only thing that can bring a single voice to others that I am aware of. Now I am not pro union, but if it gets down to them versus us--unions may become more prevalent.

    Conspiracy theory? I think maybe there is a misunderstanding in that regard. I perceive " they" as being those that are mandating this vaccination. "They" do control a lot now a days. Monitoring every keystroke, monitoring your position while at work, video cameras in halls. elevators and outside the facility. "They" are also monitoring your activity while away from work--speaking about something "they" dont like on facebook can get you fired for example. I don't think its a conspiracy ( agaisnt what?) but the fact remains we have lost a LOT of privacy. We have lost a lot of privacy in our lives and now others are telling us we must receive this so called vaccine or lose your job. I think we are getting mad. That could be a good thing.

    I agree with all you said.

    First I accept the definition of a conspiracy as:any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.Obviously, there is NOT just one entity taking action to bring about certain results on a population but numerous.When I look at all the WHYs and VARIABLES behind these actions it is very easy for me to come to a conclusion.

    I see things happening on a large scale AGAINST our RIGHTS! More rights are being awarded to those in power to erode the rights of a lot of Americans.

    My take on this is: Americans and GOOD,HONEST,RESPECTABLE,LAW ABIDING,HARD WORKING Americans are NOW being coerced through MANDATES and FEAR.Jobs are now being hung like carrots over people's heads ,as what is happening with some of these mandates we are seeing.

    Could there be a degree of truth that Americans are being"dumbed down"? Whether through drugs(and more and more of them)lack of education through massive education cuts lately(some legitimate-most not),through inaccessibility for continuing and advanced education due to exorbitant costs for those not wealthy enough to afford it or accepted but found to be ILLITERATE!! I definitely question an agenda with that one. In addition there is the insane number of people forced(mostly for legitimate reasons,some not) onto welfare.

    Who,of those who have the power to help,is actually doing so AND succeding?Some mainstream Americans have some really great doable ideas on solutions for resolving alot of the problems we face.Sure we are LISTENED to but that is about all. Maybe succeding in resolutions is NOT an option? Maybe once a good part of society is deemed unintellegent,financially insecure and largely powerless, then VOILA.Hmmmm.

    All in all, I feel we are becoming a society that has less and less resources to fight back against these injustices. Are we becoming too much of a drugged,malnourished(body and soul), sick,poor,uneducated and,by some new laws, unprotected society? We are already on that proverbial slippery slope into a complacent,desensitized,vulnerable state of existence.

    You are so right in stating "we are getting mad".We are just NOT mad enough and I fear collectively we will NEVER be.Sure ,we will continue to complain and spout betrayal amongst our little groups of friends,family,acquaintances while our reactions are monitored as a whole(through polls and activist activities) and found we are NOT going to do too much about it. It will just afford more time,reason and power (for those who CAN) to take more of our RIGHTS away.

  • 0

    Quote from olddragger
    MeggieA--I dont know if I know you? Great minds think alike? lol

    I live in Ga.

    I am glad you see the points I was trying to make in my post. If Nursing is to be accepted by other "professions" as a true profession ( sadly many times it is not) we need to practice critical thinking and question the things that are occurring around us.
    This mandated flu vaccination is one. Could you imagine what would happen if no nurse in the united states would accept a mandated flu vaccination? I do wish we had a stronger national voice.


    No,we don't know each other,just a play on words,where our thoughts on this subject closely align,I was sure we attended the same school of thought!

    Nurses are their own worst enemies for not banning together and fighting for their rights.Could you also imagine if even half of all nurses banned together and stood their ground how much that would turn the tables. Take care.

  • 0

    Quote from olddragger
    Like laidbacl al has posted we all need to educate ourselves and not just take what certain publications publish as the facts. The CDC is biased toward influenza vaccinations for example. If you do not believe that ..i urge you to research. Now the CDC is not participating in any conspiratorial theory's lol I dont mean that, but they do have a tendency to present statistics greatly in favor of influenza vaccination efficiency. Look into that.

    The influenza vaccination effectiveness depends basically on 2 factors: These being:
    1-if it is a good match with the virus's that are causing influenza infections this year
    2-how well the persons immunity system reacts with the vaccine ( more than a small percentage of people do not react favorably with it).
    Now if your immune system did not react to the vaccine in the way it is "suppose" too then you will not be protected. You have no way of knowing if the vaccination "took" or not. This means that yes you still can get influenza even though you received the flu shot.
    I know as nurses we personalty know people that this has happened too.

    Does this make the flu shot bad? No! It just means that we need to be aware of the limitations of influenza vaccinations and act appropriately.

    As far as hospitals making the flu shot mandatory--why do you think this is all of a sudden mandatory? The flu shot has been available for a more than a decade. What changed? Why, all of a sudden hospitals decided to do this? If you think it is for patient protection--does that mean that during all those previous years the hospitals were not interested in patient protection?
    Really think about this Nurses--dont just react to it.
    Agree on all statements.I have asked myself this question(your last paragraph) and I feel I have come to the right conclusion.Refused shot.

    Hey, do I know you,I think we are in the same school of thought.

  • 1
    SweettartRN likes this.

    Quote from ChristineN
    Yes I get that my employer doesn't care about me and my health. I care about what goes into my body. Has anyone on here ever looked at the ingredients in the flu shot? Most contain mercury, which is not something I am thrilled about putting in my body. Some contain other forms of preservatives as well.
    I agree with you.You are so on the mark to care about what goes in your body because noone else cares and heaven forbid,some harmful reaction befall you you will basically be on your own.Remember,can't sue the pharmaceutical companies anymore and others will just say it had to be something else. I think the actual inactivated dead virus is the least of our worries.I personally question the environment these vaccines are made in(the meningitis outbreak from contaminated steroid medication comes to mind)plus,it is not just one particular chemical in these vaccines.They are numerous and how do they react singularly in the body and how do they react to each other in the body? Does anybody REALLY know? And please don't just quote the CDC-too much Pharma influence there.

  • 2
    SweettartRN and montecarlo64 like this.

    Quote from montecarlo64
    I do not take the flu shot..I am opposed to putting foriegn anything into my body that isn't completly necessary.I am 48 years old & have been in the medical field for 30 years (CNA, LPN, RN)...I have an awesome immune system & (as I am knocking on wood), I rarely ever get sick. I think I have called in maybe 2 times in the past 5 years. Many of my younger colleages have had terrible flu symptoms this year (even with getting the flu vaccine). I believe since I have been exposed to so much crud over the years & this has boosted my immune system. I also am very vigilant with hand washing (soap & water for me, no alcohol gel). I also believe that God protects us who care for others. I strongly believe that taking the flu shot should be a choice and not mandated by anyone! Stay well everyone through this flu season
    EXACTLY!

  • 0

    Quote from elkpark
    Again, they're not holding anyone down and giving them the vaccination against their will -- they're just saying that, if you don't want to take the shot, you're welcome to seek employment elsewhere, somewhere that doesn't have that as a condition of employment. Aren't employers also "the free and the brave"? They have the right to set whatever workplace and employee conditions they see as necessary to promote good care and outcomes in their workplaces, as long as they're not violating state or Federal labor and EO laws. And employees have the right to work somewhere else if they don't like a particular facility/organization's requirements. "Freedom" cuts both ways.
    In my case,it has not been determined as yet if it is against employment law.Just might be. I was laid off (some of my co-nurses were fired!)for refusing the vaccine. Of course I contacted the Unemployment bureau which is now tying to determine the legality of that.I am the first person in the state to bring this forth.It is not state law to mandate only a hospital mandate.They are also aware of the discrepancy(me laid off,other fired).We ill see.

  • 1
    pmabraham likes this.

    Quote from MunoRN
    First, it's not illegal. The doesn't actually require employers to honor religious beliefs, they just need a business related reason not to, an argument hospitals can make.

    Second, opposition to vaccines isn't a religious belief. It's a personal belief held by people who sometimes also happens to be religious. Legally, religious beliefs have to be well established and commonly held within a particular religious group. The basis of a religion based opposition to vaccines is that preventing disease interferes with God's plan, which would then also mean one would have to shun healthcare in general to cite a religious opposition. A Nurse trying to argue that they consider the prevention or treatment of disease to be a sin is pretty much an opposing lawyer's wet dream.
    New York nurses in Albany fought the mandate and were successful.I would not be so quick to say it isn't illegal.More and more nurses are mad and there are some banning together to fight.
    Strength in numbers.No, one or two nurses won't make a difference but get enough together for a civil action then see what would happen.This is such a new concept for facilities ,to mandate,terminate,etc. This has not happened before to the extent we are seeing now. The hospitals have an upper hand right now and can say anything they want.They have not really been challenged YET. Once affected employees realize the inconsistencies and discriminatory practices of some of these facilities then maybe action will be taken. I am curious as to whether we will be seeing a law firm advertise on tv,"if you are a healthcare worker who was...." If people stay dumbed down then these mandates are going to become a given and we will have noone to blame but ourselves.

    I interpret the basis of religion based opposition to vaccines is that preventing disease does NOT interfere with God's plan. I personally would never believe God wants us diseased! I believe he wants us to try and stay healthy and strong by living in a more NATURAL existence (healthy foods,exercise,etc).The rate alot of Americans are going in healthwise(poor diets,poor exercise,drugs,etc)a majority most likely WILL BECOME diseased as confirmed by the increase in cancer,childhood diseases,etc.The flu vaccine is NOT proven to be all that safe or effective(this year more vaccinated-now a pandemic?).I refused the shot based on my personal rights.Note that this exemption is not on the refusal forms BUT religious exemption is! Think of the number of people who would check off the personal exemption box if they knew they could NOT be terminated.Couldn't have that could we?

  • 0

    Quote from Jeweles26
    Oh geez, I really don't think this has anything to do with protecting the patients or even the staff. The hospitals are doing this more with the financial bottom-line in mind. You really want to protect patients? Provide adequate staffing. Not just in numbers, but well rested, not overworked. Give all staff a gym membership and a monthly gift card to a health food store. The key to a healthy immune system is a lot more than just a few shots.

    I know everyone is different. Some people get the flu shot every year and stay healthy that way. Personally, the years I have gotten sickest were those I had to get the flu shot (in nursing school). Every year since, I have turned it down, and barely gotten the sniffles.
    I have a pretty healthy immune system on my own and don't see the point in forcibly injecting even an attenuated virus into my body. At my office, 3-4 of the ladies have had the flu. I hope I am not jinxing myself, but so far, nada for me. Close environment, poor air circulation and all.

    I'm not saying no one should be getting it, nor am I saying everyone should. I would be totally fine with having the option of 'get the shot or wear the mask'. Mask for me, any day.
    Great post.Also, I refuse the flu shots,never had a flu.

  • 0

    Quote from azure42
    Given the current amount of scientific evidence out there, I cannot help but wonder if forced compliance is warranted. The fact of the matter is, the vaccine does not provide 100% protection, and with this in mind....the argument for mandatory immunization rapidly falls into the realm of fallacy.

    On the other hand....I can't imagine working with immunocompromised patients and not getting my flu shot!!! No way. I get the shot, and sleep better at night because of it.

    At the end of the day, however, both perspectives offer compelling evidence, and both perspectives deserve respect. What I (personally) find counter-productive are the, "well if you don't like it, go seek work somewhere else" comments. This, to me, is sour grapes. People SHOULD question whether or not their conceptual rights/civil liberties are being infringed upon.

    On the other hand, refusing the flu shot does place our patients at significant risk....is this appropriate and ethical nursing care?


    What professional associations support mandated influenza vaccination among Health Care Personnel?
    * American Academy of Family Physicians
    * American Academy of Pediatrics
    * American College of Physicians
    * American Hospital Association
    * American Medical Directors Association
    * American Pharmacists Association
    * American Public Health Association
    * Association for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology
    * Infectious Diseases Society of America
    * National Business Group on Health
    * National Foundation for Infectious Diseases
    * National Patient Safety Foundation
    * Society for Healthcare Epidemiology of America

    Nursing Center - Journal Article
    http://www.thecochranelibrary.com/us...e/CD001269.pdf
    http://assets.usw.org/resources/heal..._Vaccine-1.pdf
    http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/documen...ax%20FINAL.pdf
    Early Estimates of Seasonal Influenza Vaccine Effectiveness-United States, January 2013


    I can't help but notice you listed alot of Academies and Associations.Pharmceuticals and Healthcare)are one of the largest lobbies in Washington.Also, another tidbit, Harvard Medical School is funded heavily by Big Pharma and is now trying to break ties.Only,though,because of public awareness and pressure.


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