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Content That TraumaSurfer Likes

TraumaSurfer 6,474 Views

Joined Aug 8, '10. Posts: 433 (41% Liked) Likes: 375

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  • Jan 30 '14

    Quote from ronchelednik
    It's comes down to economics but to attain a BSN with the way things are right now in the industry, you are all INSANE. Here's why, 2 persons gone to school to be nurses. One went to a nursing school for 2 years and attained ADN, graduated took NCLEX's and found employment starting at 23.50 plus shift diff. Their education cost them 2 years of dedication and a total of 50,000.00 for the education. This person by-the-way signed a contract with the nursing school to work for their hospital partner for 3 years so didn't have to pay no where near the above amount. The other person went to a University for 4 years and attained a BSN-RN, graduated took NCLEX's and found employment and the same hospital, she paid $118,000.00 for her education with it's associate cost to a private University. Now HR did not want to reward for the BSN when hiring this 2nd RN, but wanted BSN-RN's to fulfill the job description in ICU. Only because this person worked at this hospital as a CNA for 10 years prior to being a BSN-RN and had BA's in duel majors did this person receive 3% pay diff to start with her BSN in ICU. Now this is where it's gets crazy, 3% of 22.50 is .70 an hour and working 36 hours a week that comes to 1872 hours a year X .70= $1,310.00 pay diff a year. This 2 additional years of schooling cost her $60,000.00 to attain the initials BSN to her RN, and gave up for an additional 2 year her life, with no income, or sleep (because having to work and study). This 2nd person did not get a deal for free education as the first person did for going to the hospital school of nursing nor was offered a signing contract to work at this hospital for 3 years to get back the $58,000.00 not to mention it's interest and the lose of income while going to school for the additional 2 years it took to attain the BSN. Now working it will take this 2nd person over 46 years to recoup that $58,000.00 for that 2 additional years of schooling. And to add salt to injury the first person after 2 years experience was able to transfer to ICU and receive a raise of $4.00 an hour and by next year will be free and clear of any loans by signing that work promise for the years with this hospital, while the BSN person will now start paying off the $118,000.00 in students loans along with it's interest which will end up being over $160,000.00 when done. So what is the fix? Simple force a National policy that BNS RN receive 15% pay differential. Even at that percentage it would take about 12 years just to get back the investment the student made for the 2 additional years of schooling, not counting the lost of income (and life) for those 2 additional years. Fellow Nurses, you need to remember that their would not be a hospital in the United States if it wasn't for nurses. Hospital's would be nothing more than out-patient-day-clinics if it wasn't for nurses. Can you image for one second a Dr. providing bedside care for a half dozen patients at night and on the weekends? Neither can I. BSN nurses are not needed on every floor to do every job but when they are needed and their education is being required pay them, and until that happens we are all insane.
    Sure, that works out in the carefully constructed, detailed scenario you invented in order to present a situation in which the ADN-prepared person clearly comes out ahead. It would be just as easy to invent a fantasy scenario in which the BSN path is clearly the much better option. Neither proves anything.



    Whenever one of these discussions is happening here, lots of people keep harping on the amount of student debt involved in nurses returning to school to complete BSNs as if crippling levels of student debt is simply a fact of life. I returned to school to complete a BSN at a nearby state university many years after graduating from my original hospital-based diploma program. I don't recall how much it cost me, but I do know that I was easily able to pay for the program out-of-pocket as I went (working full-time and going to school part-time), without even considering taking out any student loans. I did take out some loans for graduate school, but only the minimum amount necessary after factoring in a few scholarships I was able to get and working part-time through my graduate program (full-time during the summer and holiday breaks). The investment was well worth it and it was no hardship at all to pay the loans off. If further education is something people want, there's always a way to make it work. People who don't want it can always come up with a kazillion reasons why it's not feasible.

  • Jan 30 '14

    Thank you elkpark.

    What I don't get is WHY do people use the "BSN is not cheaper" argument, especially when there are people who are second career changers that may have debt already and could be in the same boat in the example as a ADN?

    BSN doesn't always equal "expensive"; most graduate with a reasonable amount of debt; I know I did, and to say that someone is insane to get a BSN without knowing the benefits of the person, is, in fact, moot.

  • Jan 29 '14

    I used to have a colleague who would text on her cell phone while using the Pyxis ... SERIOUSLY??

    Although I hate seeing nurses constantly text while on the floor and at the nurses station, I admit I have my phone on me too but I only look at it when all my other work is done. If I get a text or a call, I respond to it when I am free, I don't need to respond right away. The nurses I am talking about are constantly on the phone texting incessantly while doing their work. If they are charting, they immediately stop the second a text comes in. I finish charting and then answer a phone or text. It's called priorities and courtesy. No one needs to be tethered to a cell phone 24/7. Five minutes lag to respond to an incoming message or call will not destroy the world.

    Also, if I see you texting on the phone at the nurses station and I need help with a patient, I have to assume that you are free to help and I will call you out on it. We are getting paid to team work and get the job done, not to text. The world does not end if you stop texting midway. If there is a code blue, do you wait to finish your text before responding with compressions or the code cart? God, you better not be working with me if you answer 'yes' ...

    Sent from my iPad using allnurses.com

  • Jan 29 '14

    What I haven't seen mentioned are the cameras and recording capabilities of cell phones, etc. For that reason alone there should be a total ban on them in any healthcare arena. There is no other way to prevent people from violating patient privacy, which makes the news routinely: protected information appears on social media daily. Aside from that I feel assaulted when I have to listen to people talking on cell phones. I agree with BlueDevil as well- and I'd take it one step further by clearly stating that any cell phone or recording device or whatnot used in an exam room will terminate the visit, but not the office charges. People just don't get it.

  • Jan 29 '14

    Quote from ♪♫ in my ♥
    If there were something serious going on with my kid, my boss and my colleagues would insist that I leave to attend to the matter. Sure, it would put them over ratio and things would slow down but they'd all agree that our families come before our job.

    The "martyr mary" attitude of "I'll finish my shift no matter what" is foreign to me.

    That said, my friend could sit with my kid while she got stitches just as easily as could I.
    The martyr mary is right up there with the super mom of dear God if I'm not right at my baby's side (even with the father there or a trusted babysitter) they will not heal. Give me a break. As for my Mom, she worked two jobs and literally could not leave to come get me. But it wasn't an emergency, it was urgent which is why we went across the street to the ER once she got home. Just too many helicopter parents these days that think if they aren't talking to their kids every 5 mins the world will end.

  • Jan 29 '14

    Quote from PMFB-RN
    The trend towards degree inflation nationwide is not evidence that people entering nursing with an associates degree are not adequately, or well prepared to be nurses in today's health are environment.
    Adequately prepared is one thing. Improved outcomes is another. There is evidence that hospitals with more baccalaureate-prepared have better outcomes, even when staffing ratios and hospital characteristics are controlled for. This certainly suggests that increasing education has a outcome impact. Most recent is from less than a year ago:

    Blegen, M. A., Goode, C. J., Park, S. H., Vaughn, T., & Spetz, J. (2013). Baccalaureate Education in Nursing and Patient Outcomes. Journal of Nursing Administration, 43(2), 89-94.

  • Jan 29 '14

    After 2 years in case management and 4 in public health, I can confidently say I do notice a difference between ADN and BSN nurses. I've worked extensively with both. And sometimes noticed these differences WITHOUT knowing which degree they had - so it's not some "power of suggestion" thing!

    The BSNs I've worked with have a more complete, critical way of assessing their patients holistically. They also know how to communicate with management and other members of the team in a more professional, polished way. They have a more in-depth, encompassing understanding of community resources, access to care and harm reduction, all crucial components of public health and population health. Most of all I see BSNs having a deeper comprehension of their many potential roles in caring for people - they aren't just fulfilling their job descriptions every day. They understand what they do every day can affect many others down the line, can affect policy and research, can affect change.

    Many ADNs I have worked with are great at being nurses and completing tasks, and yes, thinking critically. But I have noticed a lack of that overarching knowledge of the true potential of what nursing can do. ADNs I've worked with have not been as creative, confident, polished and innovative as some of the BSNs I've worked with. PERIOD. It really shows in non-hospital/non-direct-patient care environments where independent thinking is the emphasis as opposed to directed action.


    Before you ADNs jump into my diaper, remember I said this has been MY experience with MOST of the nurses I've worked with. Not ALL. Your experience might be different. But many of you work on floors and in direct care patient environments and I don't, so I just wanted to present that perspective.

  • Jan 29 '14

    It may be worth checking with your facility's HR department to clarify that you would be eligible for hire with an associate's. The health system I worked for during school, in the ER, would not consider non-BSN prepared nurses as new hires. I worked with nurses who had years and years of charging experience in the ER and are not considered "qualified" if they wanted to move to a different position/department. No one that works with them believes them to be unqualified but HR ultimately holds the power in that struggle.

  • Jan 28 '14

    Quote from MedicalPartisan

    Now, if you go the BSN route first, I will have been nursing for two years already and making money, saving toward retirement, and gaining experience before you are graduated. And we will both have our BSN at about the same time.
    Alright, so you graduate with your ADN and you're ready to go out into the world and get a leg up on all these idealistic, impractical BSN students, right? Sweet! Here we go!

    Hm, strange, seems that hospitals and acute care facilities won't accept ADN grads without prior experience.

    Four months later, no luck landing a hospital position.

    Settle into office work, in which your clinical skills atrophy, or settle into LTC, in which your clinical skills atrophy. But what you lose in clinical skills, you make up for with medpass, right?

    Alright, BSN earned!

    Wait, you mean none of my job experience matters when I apply for a hospital position? The fresh BSN student is now more qualified than an ADN with two years of non-hospital experience?

    This is sometimes (though not always) the reality of the world we live in. During clinicals, I had a hospital hiring manager specifically tell me to be careful in working between my ADN and BSN, because they preferred a clean slate versus someone who spent a few fears in LTC.

    In my opinion, many pre-nursing students on this site would benefit from SLOWING DOWN and thinking long-term about what they want ten, twenty, thirty years from now rather than indulge in the instant gratification of NOW NOW NOW. It is how people dig themselves into professional holes, are preyed upon for shady for-profit schools and screw themselves out of their dreams.

    ***OP: You stated that you had a job waiting for you in ER already. Overwhelmingly, students do not have this luxury, and therefore make choices that will benefit them the most in this competitive world.

  • Jan 28 '14

    Quote from lub dub
    I worry for the future of this profession when I see people arguing so strenuously for less education. Honestly, it's embarrassing...
    Even worse are those that argue this because it is "quick and easy" for them even if it's worse for patients they are caring for.

  • Jan 28 '14

    I worry for the future of this profession when I see people arguing so strenuously for less education. Honestly, it's embarrassing...

  • Jan 27 '14

    Quote from smartnurse1982
    No,I'm right.
    You can check out their program.
    At the end of the program,they do have to go to one of four testing centers to pass the two day clinical testing;if they pass,they are awarded an Adn. They can then sit for boards in most states.

    That is not the same as "accepting LPN-level practice" in lieu of "RN-equivalent clinical hours." You asserted they accepted hours working as an LPN in place of clinical hours. In this testing period, they would (theoretically comprehensively, though I have my doubts how this could be equivalent to the number of clinical hours of training at RN level) be testing you at RN level of performance.

    I stand by my opinion that working or having worked at LPN level while completing this program would not do anything to further RN-level skills, in that you would be exceeding your scope of practice to practice them during that period. And this is why ...

    ... this degree is not accepted by all states. Actually, not that many. We all know that there are states that will not accept this degree. Furthermore, even if you pass NCLEX in a state that does accept it, a state which does not accept it will not allow you to take licensure there by reciprocity/endorsement. People have been shocked to learn this. Word to the wise.

    California and Maryland will not license Excelsior’s nursing graduates and nursing boards in thirteen other states have restrictions or additional training requirements for Excelsior graduates, including Alabama, Arizona, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Vermont, Virginia and Washington.

  • Jan 27 '14

    Quote from smartnurse1982
    No,I'm right.
    You can check out their program.
    At the end of the program,they do have to go to one of four testing centers to pass the two day clinical testing;if they pass,they are awarded an Adn. They can then sit for boards in most states.
    Yes, but not because their LPN work experience is counted as clinical hours in an RN program; it's because EC, for some reason I can't begin to fathom, has convinced most state BONs to treat their students v. differently than every other nursing student in the US, and not require them to have X number of hours of supervised clinical experience in school in order to be eligible for licensure.

  • Jan 27 '14

    I felt the same way when I first started nursing. About 6 mos in, I felt more confident. By a year, I didn't have as much anxiety going to work. Don't be so hard on yourself. I know some older nurses like to give the newer nurses a hard time. Just keep your head up and take every day as a new opportunity to learn something new. As for the ivs, I wasn't very good either when I first tried. But I volunteered to start everyone's iv every chance I had, practice makes perfect. As for the nights..I can tell ya I'm on nights right now and I love it( never been a day person). I think that might be the reason you're still having a lot of those feelings. Definitely try small meals, cook on days off and freeze meals so you have healthy stuff on nights you work. Blackout drapes for your bedroom, try to get to bed as soon as you get home. Plenty of water and limit the caffeine (I only drink it from 7 to about 1, then only water after that and I sleep like a baby when I get home). The best advice I can give is find a seasoned nurse and have her take you under her wing. We ask each other all the time about stuff we've never come across and I still look up new medications or a new diagnosis. Just build yourself a solid foundation now, cause this what your career will be based on. And don't be so hard on yourself, I'm certain everyone has been in your shoes as a new nurse.

  • Jan 25 '14

    My mom (rest her soul) always told me: if you are about to do something, and for whatever reason, you start wondering if what you are about to do is right or wrong, then you can pretty much be guaranteed that it is wrong. I haven't always followed her advice, but it's always turned out to be correct.....I understand where you're coming from, but I really think some lines have been crossed already, and I'd leave well enough alone. Sometimes memories have to be enough.


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