Not a real nurse?? - page 4

When I am in the capacity of charge nurse on my LTC unit , I find it humilliating and frustrating that I have to find an RN to sign off on my MD orders , and if we have a fall only they can do the... Read More

  1. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    I am simply stateing that as LPNs we should fight for ourselves and not sit down and roll over because we are not as educated as RNs. Just becasue an RN knows more, does not mean an LPN does not know enough.
    YES!!!
  2. by   stevenking
    Quote from Marie_LPN
    YES!!!
    I am relatively "new" to nursing, only having been an LPN for 4 1/2 years. I'll tell you this much. "Education" proves very little when it comes to effective nursing care - I have seen diploma RN's work circles around MSN holders. Why is this the case? Alot of nursing has "nothing" to do with theory and has everything to do with practical sense - or what Grandpa would have called "horse sense". Sometimes you can do the "wrong" thing and get the "right" results, and as long as a JCAHO inspection isn't looming - then no one seems to mind.

    I have met some top notch LPN's in my tenure!

    Happy nursing!
    Steven King
  3. by   GN1974
    Quote from thekingster
    I am relatively "new" to nursing, only having been an LPN for 4 1/2 years. I'll tell you this much. "Education" proves very little when it comes to effective nursing care - I have seen diploma RN's work circles around MSN holders. Why is this the case? Alot of nursing has "nothing" to do with theory and has everything to do with practical sense - or what Grandpa would have called "horse sense". Sometimes you can do the "wrong" thing and get the "right" results, and as long as a JCAHO inspection isn't looming - then no one seems to mind.

    I have met some top notch LPN's in my tenure!

    Happy nursing!
    Steven King
    I do agree that there are good and bad in all types of nurses...but common sense and work related experience doesn't equate a degree in the sight of the BON.
    Last edit by GN1974 on Apr 1, '05
  4. by   LPNer
    Quote from GN1974
    I do agree that there are good and bad in all types of nurses...but common sense and work related experience doesn't equate a degree in the site of the BON.
    I do not remember anyone saying it does or should or could or anything else like that.
    Where did you get the idea that anyone has said that?
  5. by   GN1974
    I never implied anyone said this. My intent was to point out that it does not matter how good you are in the eyes of some employers and the BON--they don't give recognition and upward mobility for this. They may in reference to raises, etc.--but not in relation to moving beyond a specified scope. It is the duty of your employer to recognize your hard work and skills, especially if they are greater than other nurses at your level. I can see your point with a ladder type system--as long as it is contained within your scope of practice. I do not think that LPN's scope should be broadened to that of the RN though. I firmly believe if you wish to practice on the RN level you must head back for the degree. LPNer, I respect LPN's...I was one for 10 years! I am really not sure what you feel the fight is that LPN's need to stand up for. I understand that some employers are going to all RN staff due to acuity reasons--I think in most cases this isn't all bad. There is more than enough room in this profession for both levels of nurses...but the more acute care should be left to those with the more advanced degree.
    Karen
  6. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    [QUOTE]My intent was to point out that it does not matter how good you are in the eyes of some employers and the BON--they don't give recognition and upward mobility for this.Individual nurses, not just the BON, are doing the same, don't you think?
  7. by   GN1974
    Yes, I do think individual nurses do this too! There is room for both types of nurses in this profession. More than once as an LPN it was pointed out to me that because I was not an RN I couldn't get a particular job or do a specific assignment. Unfortunately as an LPN you will always have this struggle--one reason I furthered my education. I am thankful for the opportunity I had to go on. It won't end here though--no matter what you do in life there will always be some saying they are better, etc. We live in a society that is sometimes focused inward--and our profession is one that should be focused outward.
    Karen
  8. by   LPNer
    Quote from GN1974
    I never implied anyone said this. My intent was to point out that it does not matter how good you are in the eyes of some employers and the BON--they don't give recognition and upward mobility for this. They may in reference to raises, etc.--but not in relation to moving beyond a specified scope. It is the duty of your employer to recognize your hard work and skills, especially if they are greater than other nurses at your level. I can see your point with a ladder type system--as long as it is contained within your scope of practice. I do not think that LPN's scope should be broadened to that of the RN though. I firmly believe if you wish to practice on the RN level you must head back for the degree. LPNer, I respect LPN's...I was one for 10 years! I am really not sure what you feel the fight is that LPN's need to stand up for. I understand that some employers are going to all RN staff due to acuity reasons--I think in most cases this isn't all bad. There is more than enough room in this profession for both levels of nurses...but the more acute care should be left to those with the more advanced degree.
    Karen
    Just because they do not reward nurses for education aquired in other ways than college credits does not mean this can not change! That's my who point! LPNs need to stand together and be seen!
    RNs have various ladder programs (their scope allows employees to do this, at present the LPNs scope does not) LPNs must stand together and work with the BON to allow this to become a reality for LPNs.
    The online bridge programs do make becoming an RN feasible for a lot of LPNs who could not do it otherwise but that is not an option for many of us and an in-house or even statewide "ladder" program or certification program would allow LPNs to remain LPNs AND advance in their chosen carreer!
    Laws and regulations CAN change, it's time LPNs banded together to facilitate those changes.
  9. by   GN1974
    I agree to a certain extent but when you go to school to become an LPN you are made aware of your scope of practice. LPN to me is a ground level entry point into nursing. The career ladder you speak of is hard to achieve at an entry level position unless you employ upward mobility--and that would be into an RN program. Practical nursing is meant to be just as it sounds and unfortunately it has no real career mobility within itself. Professional nursing, as the board calls it, has several levels indeed. I do understand your frustration but I really don't see how there could possibly be many levels to LPN scopes when they are basically all predefined. I knew going into LPN practice that my practice was one with limited mobility unless I did a bridge program. While I understand I don't agree.
    Karen
    Last edit by GN1974 on Apr 3, '05
  10. by   LPNer
    Quote from GN1974
    I agree to a certain extent but when you go to school to become an LPN you are made aware of your scope of practice. LPN to me is a ground level entry point into nursing. The career ladder you speak of is hard to achief at an entry level position unless you employ upward mobility--and that would be into an RN program. Practical nursing is meant to be just as it sounds and unfortunately it has no real career mobility within itself. Professional nursing, as the board calls it, has several levels indeed. I do understand your frustration but I really don't see how there could possibly be many levels to LPN scopes when they are basically all predefined. I knew going into LPN practice that my practice was one with limited mobility unless I did a bridge program. While I understand I don't agree.
    Karen
    LPNs had a lot more carreer mobility when I became an LPN in the 70s. An LPN was the head nurse of the ER where I went to school. I was offered the charge nurse postiion in the ER of a small hospital in Ky in the early 80s. (I didn't want to work ER than or now.) I have been the charge nurse on a med/surg unit in a hospital. Yes, we did, at one time have a lot of carreer mobility with bascially the same scope of practice as we have now; minor changes have been made and THAT has taken our mobility away.
    LPNs at a lot of hospitals did not have "limited" IV responsiblitlies. We had the same IV responsibilities as our RN co-workers. The scope was changed and now I don't know the things I used to know! I am told that because I am onlyl an LPN I am not capable of learning anything new to expand my responsibilities unless I return to college. I don't have the abilities I used to have, where did that knowledge go? Oh I know, I don't have a degree to prove it!
    Please. LPNs have not always been treated as second class nurses. We have been whittled down by the BON (mostly RNs) to put us in our place and to prevent us form taking jobs that could better serve the professional status of RNs. How would the professional nurses insist on their value if technical nurses can are permitted to function to their full capacity in the hospital?
  11. by   GN1974
    The problem is acuity is higher now than before. Technical nurses should not be equal to professional nurses. You are wanting a similar role minus the formal education!!! I disagree that the BON is putting you down--I believe it is trying to ensure the public has the most knowledgable professional under the circumstances(an RN for ICU, etc), to ensure safe and effective care. I realize that education does not always produce great nurses--but you will find this in anything in life. Just because a teacher has the education and certification to teach does not mean he/she will be a great teacher...what has changed since the 70's is sicker patients in the hospital and for shorter stays. Patients seen in ICU in the 70's are seen on general floors today. Technology, research, advancement in medications have all made the lifespan greater and have also made the patients in today's ICU's and general floors a heck of a lot sicker than a few decades ago. I refuse to debate this further and will end on this note...Practical nursing is just how it sounds...PRACTICAL. It is an entry level self confined profession with the option of transitioning into professional nursing (where there are multiple levels). LPNs are valuable in several settings but we will continue to see their scope ever narrowed as acuity rises. Today is not the same as even 10 years ago...and LPN's have made advances! I remeber not being able to do anything with IV's 10 years ago in the midwest...we weren't even taught IV skills really! IV thereapy certifications have cropped up every where these last few years. Colorado even has 2 levels of IV therapy certs for LPN's--a basic and central line course. Don't tell me there haven't been expansions in the practice of practical nursing! I am thankful I have gone on and wish all others the same wish to succeed if they chose to go on. I believe advancement into greater and expanded scopes comes through formal education. I don't think it is fair to expect to have a similar role as an RN without advancing the same way they did--through formal education...we all learn on the job (doesn't mean I should be a NP!)

    Karen
    Last edit by GN1974 on Apr 3, '05
  12. by   LPNer
    Quote from GN1974
    The problem is acuity is higher now than before. Technical nurses should not be equal to professional nurses. You are wanting a similar role minus the formal education!!! I disagree that the BON is putting you down--I believe it is trying to ensure the public has the most knowledgable professional under the circumstances(an RN for ICU, etc), to ensure safe and effective care. I realize that education does not always produce great nurses--but you will find this in anything in life. Just because a teacher has the education and certification to teach does not mean he/she will be a great teacher...what has changed since the 70's is sicker patients in the hospital and for shorter stays. Patients seen in ICU in the 70's are seen on general floors today. Technology, research, advancement in medications have all made the lifespan greater and have also made the patients in today's ICU's and general floors a heck of a lot sicker than a few decades ago. I refuse to debate this further and will end on this note...Practical nursing is just how it sounds...PRACTICAL. It is an entry level self confined profession with the option of transitioning into professional nursing (where there are multiple levels). LPNs are valuable in several settings but we will continue to see their scope ever narrowed as acuity rises. Today is not the same as even 10 years ago...and LPN's have made advances! I remeber not being able to do anything with IV's 10 years ago in the midwest...we weren't even taught IV skills really! IV thereapy certifications have cropped up every where these last few years. Colorado even has 2 levels of IV therapy certs for LPN's--a basic and central line course. Don't tell me there haven't been expansions in the practice of practical nursing! I am thankful I have gone on and wish all others the same wish to succeed if they chose to go on. I believe advancement into greater and expanded scopes comes through formal education. I don't think it is fair to expect to have a similar role as an RN without advancing the same way they did--through formal education...we all learn on the job (doesn't mean I should be a NP!)

    Karen
    I don't remember anybody in this thread thinking that an LPN should be the same as an RN. As mentioned in your post, LPNs have two levels of IV certification. This is the type of certifications I am talking about. But it should not be limited to PIV and CIV.
    My own hospital does not add restrictions beyond what the BON restricts us to so I am very lucky in my position as an LPN. However, so many other hospitals have so many restrictions on LPNs that they do not even hire them anymore. What a waste of manpower.
    My thoughts are, if the state qualified LPNs for more through certifications, then certain hospitals would be more likely to hire LPNs.
    Pt acuity is higher than ever before and inexperienced LPNs should never enter the "units" and quite frankly, only select LPNs could ever be qualified to work there competantly.
    I do not want to make LPNs "like" RNs. We are a separate and proud class of nurses. We are qualified to work in med/surg, ortho, bariatrics, sub-acute care, hospices, etc. LPNs should be achnowledged for the training and abilities they do have and each individuals ability to build on that education to further his/her carreer with one quater or so classes that add to his/her resume proving competancy in certain areas, just as the IV certification does now.
  13. by   diane31681
    i'm from ga and lpn has almost the same responsibility as rn. with the exception of blood transfusion which require an rn. i must say the pay in mass is pretty good, i make $30k a year. i'm thinking about starting my own business, rght now i just need the capitol to ger it started. i have worked in the dia;ysis for 10 years and this is my passion, so wish me luck i refuse to let a title stop my goal in life.
    Quote from zippylpn
    just wondering.......lpn's in other states just wondering what lpn's can & cant do in other states.... im in mass.
    been a nurse for 8yrs now and have done alot in my "short" career
    so far. ive been a wound nurse, mds nurse, add-on nurse and a shift supervisor in an 150 bed snf/ltc facility as well as being a cna instructor(state certified) and of course a floor charge nurse. currently im a floor charge nurse (myself and the other nurse are charge (ltc unit) ) i have 23 pts on my wing ..total of 43 on the unit with 6 cna's
    total for my 3-11 shift... how are the ratio's elsewhere? how is the pay in other areas? i made just over $55k last yr with very little overtime...
    like i said....just wondering.................
    i was also reading the beginning of this thread and i'm like...........what ???? lpns cant do assessments? md orders? im thinking , are these ppl from mars? the only thing i cant do as an lpn is sign the rap's and pronouncements....im sure there is a bit more , and iit depends on the facility....

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