Did anyone who Graduated from Excelsior College had problems when trying.

chris_at_lucas_RN · Jul 17, 2004, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by ddc101

So in all actuality I could go the straight Excelsior route then? I was wondering. And no I am not into the clinical area yet. I am an LPN trying to get all the prerequisites for Fast Track. But I was thinking if I could do distance Ed straight through Excelsior I could work more since I have to pay my own college anyway. Thanks.

Excelsior considers (apparently) that if you are an LPN, you are getting clinical exposure at work and have the opportunity, under an RN's supervision, to expand your areas of familiarity with various skills.

As an LPN, you would meet Excelsior's admission criteria.

I too paid my way through nursing school (and all the rest of my education as well) and it really makes a difference being able to completely tailor your schooling to your own schedule.

No PowerPoint presentations, no papers due, no appointments where you must be in a classroom or on a chatline. They give you everything you could possibly need in terms of "assigned readings," and they're available by telephone, email or fax, during normal business hours (and some early evenings--I forget which). And you go out there (or in my case, get on line) and learn, learn, learn.

I thought it was terrific.

Good luck, and let us know if we can be helpful. Somebody's almost always here! (LOL)

Sheri257 · Jul 17, 2004, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by chris_at_lucas

If you have finished at least half the clinicals required for your degree, you would be eligible the apply for admission to Excelsior College.

This is probably the weirdest thing about the pro-Excelsior arguments. Especially when you go on about how supposedly tough the admission and course requirements are, and how it meets the requirements of other schools.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure it's tough. Just like LVN school is tough. And the first year of nursing school is tough. But it's still not going to qualify you as an RN in California, if that's all you've done.

If only half the clinicals are required, and there's only the two and a half day CPNE exam besides that, how does this meet the requirements? Especially since the CPNE doesn't test for the additional clinicals required in the last year of nursing school.

Half is still only half of the clinicals required elsewhere. How many schools allow you take half the clinicals and still graduate with a degree? Not many. How is this supposed to measure up to other programs or state requirements?

I guess you guys think the state is supposed to assume people will pick up the rest of the clinical skills on the job. But how is the state supposed to know this? How are they supposed to verify that people get the additional training if nobody's watching, and it's not even tested in CPNE?

It's a very strange argument and doesn't make much sense.

chris_at_lucas_RN · Jul 17, 2004, 03:26 PM

Perhaps it would be clearer if you considered that with Excelsior College, it isn't what you have done, because anybody can live long enough to complete clinicals and pass with a C or better (or B or better, or whatever the subjective grade minimum would be).

With Excelsior College, it is all about what you can do. You have to be able to demonstrate certain skills.

Anyone who has been through clinicals knows you can avoid doing (or just not get the chance to do) certain skills.

Do you not think that LVN's have and use nursing skills? Seems to me that they do! And after they graduate and go to work, they get more skills, because they are exposed to them, they learn them, and they do them. I haven't met an LVN yet who wasn't a nurse, but the suggestion is that somehow being an LVN should not be sufficient for entrance into an RN program. If they can do what it takes, why not?

I guess that confuses me. What difference does it make if they are an LVN if they can do the skills of a newly graduated ADN? Isn't that the point?

I would be very surprised if the California BON required any nursing students to have an actual clinical examination. But Excelsior requires this.

It's not about how many hours or minutes you spend in your uniform, being a student nurse on a floor someplace, clocking time in clinicals. There's no consistency there anyway, i.e., no two students will have the same clinical experience. Therefore some will have more than others, and therefore, others will have less than some. Some instructors really do make sure that you can do what you are supposed to do, but many, many (read those posts!) do not. Everybody gets an A--next!

There is much more consistency with Excelsior College: It's what you know and what you can do.

It actually isn't very confusing at all, if you read any of the many, many cogent posts written by Excelsior College students who have succeeded in completing the program, over the past many years, without preconceived negative notions.

Well, I guess it could be confusing, since anything could be confusing....

Sheri257 · Jul 17, 2004, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by chris_at_lucas

Do you not think that LVN's have and use nursing skills? Seems to me that they do! And after they graduate and go to work, they get more skills, because they are exposed to them, they learn them, and they do them. I haven't met an LVN yet who wasn't a nurse, but the suggestion is that somehow being an LVN should not be sufficient for entrance into an RN program. If they can do what it takes, why not?

I guess that confuses me. What difference does it make if they are an LVN if they can do the skills of a newly graduated ADN? Isn't that the point?

There's a fundamental flaw with this argument. Which is: most states won't allow LVN's (or LPN's) to practice as RN's without additional education and training. If LVN's do already have all of the skills, then why don't the states go ahead and simultaneously license them as RN's? They wouldn't have to even bother with Excelsior or any other school.

I haven't heard of any state board which says LVN's have the same skills, let's go ahead and license them as RN's, forget about the other requirements. It just doesn't work that way. Obviously they think LVN's need something more to qualify as RN's.

The other problem is how are they supposed to know that the LVN can do the skills? Take their word for it? That was one of the issues with CPNE in California. It doesn't test for advanced meg surg, psych and geriatric clinicals, which are all required in LVN to RN transition programs.

Then, of course, you've got the problem of other people going through Excelsior who aren't even LVN's. How do you know they have the skills? If CPNE doesn't test for everything LVNs are supposed to know, then how is a two and half day test supposed to cover all the other skills as well?

In the end, the argument seems to boil down to: Trust us. We get the skills on the job. Don't worry about it. Well ... that's not how it works, at least in California.

chris_at_lucas_RN · Jul 17, 2004, 05:20 PM

Not going there any more. You are right. You must be right. You keep saying the same things over and over again. Repetition makes for accuracy, doesn't it?

If I follow your most recent argument, I guess nursing students must be allowed to practice as RN's in California. Therefore, they would be eligible to be licensed as RN's. That is what you are implying.

I am still curious, lizz. You never have told us your credentials. What experience or education gives you any sort of insights about Excelsior College? Did they not accept your application?

Are you a nurse? A nursing student? You did say once that you couldn't divulge anything because of some kind of legality. Does that also keep you from making use of Excelsior's programs? Is that where your ire comes from?

So many of us have asked you what your deal with Excelsior College is. Give us a clue! We might be able to relate to you in a more positive way if you ever answered any of those questions! (We've all been pretty open and honest about where we are and where we come from... your turn!

)

As they say....

Inquiring minds want to know!

SMK1 · Jul 17, 2004, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by lizz

There's a fundamental flaw with this argument. Which is: most states won't allow LVN's (or LPN's) to practice as RN's without additional education and training. If LVN's do already have all of the skills, then why don't the states go ahead and simultaneously license them as RN's? They wouldn't have to even bother with Excelsior or any oti was under the impression that most her school.

i was under the impression that the "skills" were (for the most part) the same for lpn and Rn but the educational knowledge base is what differentiates the two.

I haven't heard of any state board which says LVN's have the same skills, let's go ahead and license them as RN's, forget about the other requirements. It just doesn't work that way. Obviously they think LVN's need something more to qualify as RN's.

Again it think it is just the broader and more in depth education that the state would require.

The other problem is how are they supposed to know that the LVN can do the skills? Take their word for it? That was one of the issues with CPNE in California. It doesn't test for advanced meg surg, psych and geriatric clinicals, which are all required in LVN to RN transition programs.

This would be an issue, especially if one had been working in one specialty for a long time. (i.e. threads about "losing your skills in ltc" etc...)

Then, of course, you've got the problem of other people going through Excelsior who aren't even LVN's. How do you know they have the skills? If CPNE doesn't test for everything LVNs are supposed to know, then how is a two and half day test supposed to cover all the other skills as well?

this i would think would be the biggest concern. People who are not lpns or paramedics/emt-I's. the former would have attained a certain skill set that others probably won't have had. the test should be comprehensive for competency in all areas that other local RN schools look for competency in.

In the end, the argument seems to boil down to: Trust us. We get the skills on the job. Don't worry about it. Well ... that's not how it works, at least in California.

i freely admit that i have no experience regarding excelsior other that what i have read here. It seems like a program that could work for many lpns and paramedics but others might have some problems getting the clinical skills practice.

Sheri257 · Jul 17, 2004, 05:47 PM

Excelsior rejecting my application. Pretty funny. I've never applied to the Excelsior program. With all of the problems out here, why would I even want to do that? :chuckle

I guess if I was repeatedly posting that EC is greatest program in the world, and the California decision was some wild conspiracy against EC, then you wouldn't complain. Seems like people post that a lot, over and over again, but that's somehow not repetitive.

Oh well ... I guess it's to be expected.

*RN34TX* · Jul 18, 2004, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by chris_at_lucas

Inquiring minds want to know!

Oh please Chris! We all know that she failed. The only people who seem to be interested in frequenting the EC boards and slamming EC are the failed would- be RN's on some mission. Why else would she be so interested in participating in all of the EC discussions? And be so persistant?
I don't frequent message boards of schools that I never went to or even applied at. Does anyone else out there? Why would I care about what goes on at UTA if I never went to school there?
Of all the stuff I've been reading on this thread, my favorite one was the remark about nursing schools not caring about or pulling out from NLN accreditation. (Sorry Lizz if I didn't quote it perfect but it was a little ways back in this thread.)
That would be like a hospital not caring about Joint Commision accreditation.
I've been licensed in 4 other states. When you apply for licensure in another state one of the first things they want to know is whether or not the school you graduated from is NLN accredited. If it is not, you may have some trouble and additional hoops to jump through in obtaining licensure in another state. Any traveling nurse will tell you that.
And as far as the "legal" aspects of her secrecy, it reminds me of my last day of the CPNE when the van driver told me that when he picks up the failed students at the hospital that it is very common for him to hear them threatening a lawsuit against EC right after they fail.

Sheri257 · Jul 18, 2004, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by RN34TX

Oh please Chris! We all know that she failed.

Of all the stuff I've been reading on this thread, my favorite one was the remark about nursing schools not caring about or pulling out from NLN accreditation.

And as far as the "legal" aspects of her secrecy, it reminds me of my last day of the CPNE when the van driver told me that when he picks up the failed students at the hospital that it is very common for him to hear them threatening a lawsuit against EC right after they fail.

We'll see if the moderator lets this comment stand, but I didn't fail anything in the EC program because I've never even attempted to enroll.

I worked on some legal cases involving liability caused by EC grads. I'm sure you'll slam me for this, but I really can't say any more than that. Despite your conspiracy theories, a major enforcement action like the California BORN decision doesn't happen for arbitrary reasons.

BTW, here's the thread which discussed schools' voluntary withdrawl from the NLN. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe them.

http://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67399

Funny how you guys always resort to personal attacks, instead of debating the subject at hand.

*RN34TX* · Jul 18, 2004, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by lizz

We'll see if the moderator lets this comment stand, but I didn't fail anything in the EC program because I've never even attempted to enroll.

I worked on some legal cases involving liability caused by EC grads. I'm sure you'll slam me for this, but I really can't say any more than that. Despite your conspiracy theories, a major enforcement action like the California BORN decision doesn't happen for arbitrary reasons.

BTW, here's the thread which discussed schools' voluntary withdrawl from the NLN. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe them.

http://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67399

Funny how you guys always resort to personal attacks, instead of debating the subject at hand.

I apologize if I am wrong in guessing you as a failed Excelsior student, but you sure do sound like one.
I won't even touch your legal involvement with EC grads, this country has enough of a "lottery mentality" when it comes to lawsuits. I can only hope that you are not trying to gain compensation for families who think their loved ones would have had better outcomes had they not been taken care of by EC grads.
Also, I thought that I was debating the subject at hand even though you took my comment as a personal attack. I read the posts you indicated and Florida schools can do what they wish, but I'm telling you that graduating from a non-NLN accredited school can set you up for problems down the road trying to get licensure in another state.
If schools pull out of NLN, who will be monitoring their programs? If I were a student I would be scared that the instructors could basically do as they wish with no one to answer to.
Again, I apologize if indeed I am wrong about your background, but I've seen a lot of bitterness online after someone doesn't make it through the program and your comments and continued participation in EC discussions made me very suspicious.