ANA discriminates against LPN/LVN - page 2

The ANA is discriminating against LPNs and LVNs. American Nurses Association. No mention there abour REGISTERED? nope . To me that means ALL nurses. They should be forced to allow our membership or... Read More

  1. by   Brownms46
    Here is an advocate of LPNs being admitted to the ANA, even if it is in a "limited capacity"! This post was made by tim,acnp. Lpn/vn, read it carefully, and see if you wish to be included in an organization with those who think like this!

    ACNP
    Veteran
    Member # 10664
    posted May 06, 2001 09:44 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Okay, look. I have not the time, the will, nor the desire to argue

    Yet, I find hilarious the number of LPNs who THINK they have what it takes to be an RN. Everyone wants to be considered a professional, BUT VERY FEW are willing to put forth the effort to reach that level. There are DISTINCT DIFFEERNCES in the education of an LPN vs. an ADN. And the BSN? The differences in education are incomparable. Okay, okay…..so you are better at making beds, inserting foleys, or other “technical” duties. So is a highly trained monkey. But can you think critically? Let me answer that for you….NO. 90% of LPNs don’t know the meaning of critical thinking, much less have the ability to apply it. I think that it is safe to say that 99.9% of LPNs CANNOT take a critical situation and apply knowledge learned from physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology etc. and apply it to that situation. It’s possible to memorize a ton of information, but NOT UNDERSTAND ANY OF IT. That is precisely the reason why your scope of practice is limited, as well as why advanced practice nursing requires the BSN as a prerequisite.

    Yet, as always, nursing continues to seek the least common denominator – that which is easiest. What is the easiest and fastest way I can obtain my AND? That is no different than me stating, “How many classes can I skip in medical school? After all, I have eight years of full-time college education (and every prerequisite for medical school). I hold a BSN (4.0 G.P.A.) as well as a Masc. (3.95 G.P.A), in conjunction to years of VALUBLE experience. Don’t forget!!! I already have prescriptive privileges, and I’ve tutored many of your medical students over the past two years in physical assessment skills! That should count for something!!!!! Pu-leeeaassseeee. Do you think they give a damn? Of course not. It is called S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. Get it? One more time…
    S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. By all means…pursue an AND (or whatever) in the fast track, but please…PLEASE – don’t whine and moan because you aren’t deemed a professional.

    Furthermore, the longstanding conviction that the BSN should be the entry level into nursing will never be adhered to. Thus, I am an advocate of having LPNs join the ANA in a limited capacity. There clearly needs to be unity within this field. But make no mistake. While unity is imperative for nursing to progress, there is a reason for the hierarchy. All nurses ARE NOT the same.

    As always, this is not meant to be construed as insensitive or rude. However, the issue has apparently become cloudy, and the need for clarification is quite evident. I am done with this issue. Take care.



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    Posts: 63 | From: | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

    :mad
  2. by   -jt
    "I am an advocate of having LPNs join the ANA in a limited capacity."


    I can see what you mean about the unity thing on the surface of things but I think limited capacity would be creating a 2-tier system within the organization & cause DISunity. The LPNs might end up feeling like 2nd-class citizens & that would just cause division within the ranks. While LPNS & RNs are both nurses & have common ground, they do have different issues of concern too. Thats nothing to be ashamed of or defensive about. LPNs already have their own national organziation (do they join that???) & are unionized by the other healthcare unions. We can all work together on the common ground & maintain our own organizations for our own separate needs - and thats just what is happening through the ANA affiliation with the AFL-CIO, so Whats wrong with that?
  3. by   davisll
    Brownsm46,
    Wow this is harse, I agree that you have a great amount of education but some of us can not afford to attend college for BSN. Personally I don't see the need to have to take all those English, Speech, etc course to become a nurse. I don't think any of the non-nursing courses except maybe Math, or Psych. are necessary in the working world. I don't think that most of us as LPN's want to be treated like a BSN nurse, but I do think we would like to be treated like a nurse who has education and skills to accomplish the work that we have to do. I have respect for all nurse whether they are an LPN, ADN, or BSN. I respect those that respect me for what I do. I do, however, believe that BSN nurses are basically trained for management, which is fine, but I believe that LPNs, and ADNs are more trained for technical and skills, most the the nurses that I have worked with are mainly LPNs and ADNs and most want to work hands-on and not managment, that's why we choose what we choose. Not to mention that most of us that are LPNs or ADNs are family oriented and do not have the time or money to pursue the BSN degree. I personally think that what you said is very hurtful, we are all trying our best to provide for our patients in a professional manner, no matter what the degree. An I personally don't think anyone would like a monkey to insert a foley. I appreciate you, you should try to appreciate and respect others less educated then you, but that may have the skills to get the job done.
  4. by   jamistlc
    Greetings fellow Nurses,

    First I would like to wish all of us a Happy Nurses Day! I take extreme prediduce at this persons post (Until I reread it and noted you were not the one who said it)! I am not a "Trained Monkey" although you, all humans beings, and I desend from the Great Apes! And I am skilled ty for noting that!

    Now to the issue of critical thinking! I have been told, it was I who saved a pt live on more than one occasion! Why because I noted something and would not let it go or for the sake of the client I continued to get the Attending/Surgeon into the clients room! Seriously if it had been up to my charge nurse on 2 occasions I would have had a D/C'd client, instead I advocated to get what they needed!

    As a LPN we are not allowed to apply our critical assessment skills just document and pass on the observations and our thoughts to the Charge or Attending Physician. So do not say we do not have them. We are mandated to allow someone else to apply thier skills! But I have been known to continue up the chain of command to get the response I want! That is called pt advocay if you recall!

    I see by the post you were/are frustrated and settled for being a nurse and not a MD? [QOUTE]“How many classes can I skip in medical school?"[/QOUTE] "Not deemed a professional" by whos standards? Yours and the ANA?

    [QOUTE]Furthermore, the longstanding conviction that the BSN should be the entry level into nursing will never be adhered to. Thus, I am an advocate of having LPNs join the ANA in a limited capacity. There clearly needs to be unity within this field. But make no mistake. While unity is imperative for nursing to progress, there is a reason for the hierarchy. All nurses ARE NOT the same. [/QOUTE]

    NO, THANKS, ABSOLUTELY NOT! They tried as activley as legally posible to abolish us LPN's, Who do think think they are and who do they think they are dealing with trained monkeys?

    Peace,
    Have a Blessed Day,
    Jami

    PS Where did you find this?
  5. by   RNPD
    jt-I am a member of the ANA by virtue of my SNA as my collective bargaining agent. I am also a member of my local chapter. AND I am an ADN. I attempted to become active in my local chapter. It is made up of mostly administrative and exec RNs-there were NO bedside nurses at the meetings I went to. When I attempted to be recognized to speak at one meeting, I was basically ignored until it was suddenly "no time for more questions". I have heard people I know descibe the same scenario at the state level. I admit I do not know anyone at the national level personally.

    Now, it's possible that it was the fact that i am a stranger, not because of my ADN, that i went unrecognized. But from discussing it with others, I think it's because I was recognized as a bedside nurse. I hope the attitude will change.

    BTW, I do advocate a BSN as the minimum for licensure. I hope I would be grandfathered in as well. And i would match my critical thinking skills against any other nurse anyday-and do believe I would frequently come out ahead, as I have in several instances in my career!
  6. by   stick
    Originally posted by stiritup:
    <STRONG>Hey, realnursealso, Want to be treated as a PROFESSIONAL, get a PROFESSIONAL DEGREE. However, this will take 4 years of college; not ONE year!!! </STRONG>
    On, now that's professional. Your name says it all!
  7. by   Brownms46
    Originally posted by davisll:
    <STRONG>Brownsm46,
    Wow this is harse, I agree that you have a great amount of education but some of us can not afford to attend college for BSN. Personally I don't see the need to have to take all those English, Speech, etc course to become a nurse. I don't think any of the non-nursing courses except maybe Math, or Psych. are necessary in the working world. I don't think that most of us as LPN's want to be treated like a BSN nurse, but I do think we would like to be treated like a nurse who has education and skills to accomplish the work that we have to do. I have respect for all nurse whether they are an LPN, ADN, or BSN. I respect those that respect me for what I do. I do, however, believe that BSN nurses are basically trained for management, which is fine, but I believe that LPNs, and ADNs are more trained for technical and skills, most the the nurses that I have worked with are mainly LPNs and ADNs and most want to work hands-on and not managment, that's why we choose what we choose. Not to mention that most of us that are LPNs or ADNs are family oriented and do not have the time or money to pursue the BSN degree. I personally think that what you said is very hurtful, we are all trying our best to provide for our patients in a professional manner, no matter what the degree. An I personally don't think anyone would like a monkey to insert a foley. I appreciate you, you should try to appreciate and respect others less educated then you, but that may have the skills to get the job done. </STRONG>
    I did NOT write the post, I just copied it here! jason the acnp wrote it, as a response to a post I made, that was NOT meant to be a discussion about the differences between LPNs/RNs. It was in response to a long ago suppose to be, grandfathering of LPN with ADN into being "Technical Nurses". I also NEVER said I thought this should happened, I just stated, that I too, had heard about it waaaaaaay back in 1979! Heard about it...period! This then erupted into a discussion as to how LPNs shouldn't be allowed to "fast track" into being an RN, and should be required to do the whole two years, as stated by jason,...NOT ME! I responded, that fast track programs have their purpose, whether it is LPN to ADN or ADN to BSN, and this post was responded to by jason, with the above response!

    I'm an LPN/VN, meaning I have licenses in states that use both terms, and have NEVER even realized that there were RNs, who held such beliefs about LPNs! I was totally appalled by the response, and those who rallied to defend what HE posted! I posted it on many different forums, as a way to allow other LPN/VNs, to be aware of the mentality of some RNs, but thankfully NOT ALL! I'm grateful to have worked, and at this moment, still work with BSNs, who do remember where they came from, and who don't look down their noses at anyone! Who allow me to feel like I make a different on the unit, WE ALL work on. On this unit, you would be hard pressed to know who was who, because everyone makes a contribution, and they're encouraged to think for themselves, and be advocates for their pts. We have a GOOD unit, an I'm proud to working with such PROFESSIONALS! To the secure, and competent RNs, at the VA Hospital in Seattle, I salute YOU! I'm so lucky that the ones I have worked with thus far, have no such insecurities, that would cause them to try, and make me, or anyone else feel less than those who don't have a BSN!

    Brownie


    [ May 09, 2001: Message edited by: Brownms46 ]
  8. by   Kris10lnC
    Hello People!!!!! You still don't get it.
    1. Nurses are nurses. Personally I myself am not looking for "professional recognition". I simply happened upon the ANA website one day and thought, "hmmm, that looks interesting, keep updated on things, newsletters, etc." and thought I'd join. UNTIL THEY SAID "WE DON'T ACCEPT LPNs". And I felt a little discriminated against. And for the idiot who made a comparison to Playboy, and the KKK? Well your choice in the content of your post tells all. Apparently he is watching too much Jerry Springer. To reiterate--- MY BEEF WITH ANA AMERICAN NURSES ASSOCIATION, IS SIMPLY THIS: if you are going to call yourself the AMERICAN NURSES association-than you should be allowing American Nurses to join.PERIOD!! I am American. I am a nurse.PERIOD. That's it , it's that simple. I was a little discouraged that as bad as it is out there, we're still chewing each other up. Yes, I will agree whole heartedly that the more education you have , the more educated you are. DUH!!!!-To all you RN's no matter what you call yourself! BUT LET'S NOT FORGET ONE THING! COMMON SENSE! not every RN is brilliant, and not every LPN is a dimly lit bulb!You have to be able to apply what you've learned as well. stop with the predjudism and segregation and maybe we can get something done for the good of the cause.
  9. by   Kris10lnC
    OK ****HOTSPAM***** THIS ONE'S FOR YOU...
    IF the ANA wishes to represent the BSN as a professional nurse? hooray! bravo! congratulations AMERICAN BSN ASSOCIATION! ARE you getting me now?
    The ambiguity of their name is the issue here, and you would be cheering me on if they excluded you as the ADN. I never made any reference to wanting to feel more like a professional. I only made reference to the fact that if you are to call yourself American Nurses Association, and only allow critical care nurses,or only white nurses, and to add further insult, imply that these other nurses arent worthy of membership. Maybe someone ,somewhere needs to redefine NURSE. You can bet your ADN that there would be a hefty lawsuit filed. And as for recognition? Were looking to be acknowledged as a NURSE.I think you can easily compare LPN with ADN. Keep in mind that nursing isn't the only factor here. If you're going to say that "FRED" will be a better nurse than "JIM" because he has ADN vs LPN. It's simply not so. I know a good many RNs that can't apply what they've "learned".You need to remember that Fred and Jim may not have started out on the same playing field intellectually.Maybe your RN student was a poor High School student and your LPN student was top of his class? Just because a person is a LPN/LVN, don't dare assume that it's the extent of their knowledge. Experience is a major factor, and outside education. I wouldn't be too hasty to cast stones at LPNs, we're only a few classes away.
  10. by   Level2Trauma
    OK, I agree, However, if you don't want to recognize the ANA as being the voices of all nurses, then you must not engaGE in any of the workplace rights they have fought for. So when you get stuck WITH a needle, do not use the legislation they fought for to cover youR A#$. DO NOT USE ANYTHING THAT THE ANA HAS FOUGHT FOR OVER THE LAST 100 YEARS AND SEE HOW LEFT OUT IN THE COLD YOU REALLY ARE. I cn't beleive that people with this type of IQ is even allowed in the profession. MAKES ME WONDER, WHAT IS THE CRITERIA FOR ENTRANCE??????????

    [ May 10, 2001: Message edited by: Level2Trauma ]
  11. by   rncountry
    That was uncalled for, as well as other posts that more or less have told the original poster what an idoit she/he is. Why is that there can not be discussion about something without someone resorting to these type of comments and such? Would I offend you how you managed to get into the field based on the nastiness you have just displayed? Jeez, I read stuff like this and am ashamed that people who profess to give a damn about people they know nothing about and are willing to take care of them no matter what the patient does or has, cannot extend a bit of the same caring and courtesy they give to those strangers they have very little if anything in common with. An LPN is a nurse, an ADN is a nurse, and so on. Why is it such a stretch to think that we could simply acknowledge that each role plays an important part in the healthcare system and celebrate those roles instead of degrading one another. We continue to cut off our nose to spite our face and continue to wonder why we have such little respect from employers, could it be because we can't even respect one another?
  12. by   -jt
    "jt-I am a member of the ANA by virtue of my SNA as my collective bargaining agent. I am also a member of my local chapter. AND I am an ADN. I attempted to become active in my local chapter. It is made up of mostly administrative and exec RNs-there were NO bedside nurses at the meetings I went to. When I attempted to be recognized to speak at one meeting, I was basically ignored until it was suddenly "no time for more questions". I have heard people I know descibe the same scenario at the state level. I admit I do not know anyone at the national level personally."

    RNPD, there is no excuse for the way you were treated & I would urge you to inform the offices about what you have experienced. You & I are both ADNs & both represented by the same SNA. When I said the majority of the ANAs members are RNs just like us, I meant in total. The majority of the total membership of the ANA are staff nurses who work at the bedside & in this country, the majority of those RNs hold ADNs, then Diplomas, then come the BSNs. But the same is true of our state association. Something like 99% of our 34,000 members are staff nurses at the bedsides & represented for collective bargaining. WE are the majority in our association & the association does recognize & cater to that. Thats why we have such a strong collective bargaining program overall.
    That said, The districts set their own agenda for what is going on in their areas. Its a shame that direct-care RNs do not get involved in their local districts but if they dont, how can they complain that they are left out of the decisions in their districts? As you know, the involved members set the agenda & make the decisions in our organization. If bedside nurses are not involved in your local district, how will their issues ever get addressed there? Nurse apathy is a big problem throughout our profession - and thats part of the reason we're all in the situation we are in today. One of the things we can do in our organization is vote in direct-care nurses for the leadership positions when we get our voting ballots & the background bios on everyone who is running. We should be reading those bios & voting for the direct-care nurses & sending in the ballots on time. We also have the nurse-to-nurse ambassadorship program where we mentor other direct care nurses to become more involved. Our organization has recognized the problem of direct-care nurses not getting involved & it has taken several steps to increase their involvement. One way to do that is by "proportional representation" in which a certain number of leadership positions based on our percentage of direct-care members is reserved for only direct-care RNs to hold & direct-care RNs are recruited to run for the positions. At last falls convention, this change in our bylaws was lost by just 19 votes. It comes up again for vote at this years convention in NYC November 1-4. I encourage you to attend, bring your colleagues & vote YES for proportional representation. Our organziation is working hard to get more direct-care nurses more involved (see the EG&W webpage), but while you can lead a horse to water - you cant make her drink. You are to be commended for your dedication & again Id suggest you call the offices about this situation. But other than tying up your peers & dragging them to your chapter meetings, I dont know how else to get them there if they arent interested despite all the education & attempts to involve them more & as long as they arent there, only those execs who are there will be calling the shots in your area.
    At some point apathetic ADN staff nurses will have to share some of the responsibility for this mess themselves.
  13. by   RNPD
    jt-you are right. And i have tried to get the nurses I work with to go to the local meetings. Some say they didn't opt to join the local chapter because it increases their dues. Others went once, had the same experience as me, and refused to go again. I did think about complainong to my rep but I feel like it will sound like a little kid who was left out by the others-you know "they won't let me play". It's not as if I can prove it was because i am a staff nurse. You can't force people to talk to you as a peer-especially when the people are the snooty supervisors you work with everyday!

    I am hoping to attend the November convention. We need to have proprtional representaion. BTW, what is the EG&W webpage?

    Thanks for the support.

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