Foreign nurses watch this... - page 3

by bryanb_2003ph

Guys, watch this... What do you think when he said "importing nurses is absolutely nonsense"?... Read More


  1. 2
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    Are you saying if I was a foreign physician in another country let us stay India, I would take a pay cut and work as a RN while I wait for retrogression is over? Also why would a physician not try to go the MD route ? My daughter recently took the USMLE 1 and aced the test, it was one of the easiest standardized test she ever took. Since this test is based on science and not clinical knowledge I would think foreign trained MDs would do well since they are not at a disadvantage like the NCLEX which can often refer to clinical practice that the student is not exposed to. There is a physician shortage and I believe getting a visa is easier for a MD.
    The US physician community has been smart enough (IMHO) to make it very difficult for foreign MDs to be able to get licensed and practice as MDs in the US (I wish the US nursing PTB did as good a job of looking out for US nurses' interests! ) Foreign docs not only have to pass the foreign doc exams, they also have to get accepted into a US residency program and complete an entire US residency, regardless of how long they have been practicing physicians in their own countries. US residency programs have plenty of foreign residents who are new (med school) grads, but few experienced physicians from abroad want to go back practically to the beginning of their training and start over again. They find it much quicker and easier to complete a "quickie" nursing program and get licensed in the US as an RN -- which we make it comparatively easy to do, and, if they're coming from a third world country, they still make much more $$$ as an RN here than they would make as a physician at home, so it's still a big step "up" financially. There are quite a few "MD-to-RN" educational programs available now that have been discussed on this board.
    Mcgyver and NurseCubanitaRN2b like this.
  2. 1
    No one is saying that if you're a foreign-trained doctor that you could come to North America and work as an RN. You would have to have subsequently been educated in a nursing faculty to the standard level required to be registered in North America, which for most provinces in Canada is a BScN. RNs and doctors are not interchangeable in any sense. I work with a former MD-now-RN and she does not function all that well as an RN. In fact she cannot be given an intermediate level assignment because she cannot handle that, despite having worked on our unit for more than year already AND being an MD. And in Canada a foreign medical graduate must complete a residency in a Canadian hospital before being permitted to write the Canadian physician board exams. We have many FMGs who are driving cabs or cleaning offices because of the scarcity of residencies for FMGs. Really there are no shortcuts. I realize this thread was aimed at opportunities in the US, but Hushdawg brought Canada into the picture and so I feel beholden to ensure no one is being given false information.

    Here are a few recent stories from the Edmonton Journal; trust me when I tell you that bed closures mean nurses losing their jobs.
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/...388/story.html
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/...233/story.html
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/...202/story.html
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/healt...010/story.html
    Fiona59 likes this.
  3. 0
    Quote from Hushdawg
    There *ARE* Jobs.

    USA DOES HAVE JOBS. Since you are a BSN holder instead of an ASN (like most nurse grads in USA) you qualify for the mid-level positions where the shortage is rather than the entry level positions where there are a surplus.

    Retrogression does not mean that NO visas are being issued, it means that visas are DELAYED in issue. So go ahead, get your license, apply for your visa and wait through the retrogression delay... in the mean time get a job in any of the dozens of other countries that need nurses to increase your levels of experience. You can do this in Canada, in US-founded hospitals in the Mid-east, in northern Africa; all over the place.

    Additionally, to get your initial 6 months of experience you can look into the NARS program. The second batch is closing on Sept. 26th but there will hopefully be a renewal of the program (according to DOLE Undersecretary) for 2010 for another 2 batches of 5000+ nurses per batch. The 6 month assignment will be to Rural clinics and Hospitals where many people have not had access to healthcare for a long time.

    If you are discouraged to the USA option then start working on a path to immigration to Canada, New Zealand or Australia. Once You begin the immigration process as a nurse you will enter a training program to acclimate you to the NZ and AUS way of doing things; once you pass this program and are approved to work as a nurse then you can easily find a job.
    Canada is no different, for BSN graduate RNs once you immigrate to Canada it is easy to find a job.

    Jobs are out there! GO get them!


    Additionally, a group of nurses could put together a private care clinic with very little start up money per person. With any luck you can get an MD/RN a DDS/RN an OD/RN and make the most out of all the medical professionals who have second-coursed as RNs. Use all your skills and earn income while providing care to people that may otherwise not have access!
    Do you mind clarifying what you meant by the "mid-level positions" you mentioned. Are these nursing administrative positions, case managers maybe? I just have never heard the word used in that manner. However, I've heard of "mid-level providers" and those are NP's, PA-C's, CRNA's, and CNM's - roles that are not utilized and have no educational pathways available for nurses in the Philippine setting.
  4. 0
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    Are you saying if I was a foreign physician in another country let us stay India, I would take a pay cut and work as a RN while I wait for retrogression is over? Also why would a physician not try to go the MD route ? My daughter recently took the USMLE 1 and aced the test, it was one of the easiest standardized test she ever took. Since this test is based on science and not clinical knowledge I would think foreign trained MDs would do well since they are not at a disadvantage like the NCLEX which can often refer to clinical practice that the student is not exposed to. There is a physician shortage and I believe getting a visa is easier for a MD.
    I'm not saying I agree with this route, I am actually (gasp and shock) in agreement with you on this one.

    USMLE is not exactly difficult on the exam side, but the problem is all the effort and expense that one must go through in order to take the USMLE as a foreign physician.
    For that reason, many MDs choose to second-course as nurses because the same process for taking NCLEX and getting licensed is relatively easier. The goal is to work in the USA for a few years as a nurse and then take USMLE and become physicians.

    Personally I feel that if you are a physician that you should focus on that and just accept the expenses and hassle involved with doing USMLE as a foreigner and this is what I advise when asked.
    But like the old saying goes: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
  5. 0
    Quote from NP Gilly
    Do you mind clarifying what you meant by the "mid-level positions" you mentioned. Are these nursing administrative positions, case managers maybe? I just have never heard the word used in that manner. However, I've heard of "mid-level providers" and those are NP's, PA-C's, CRNA's, and CNM's - roles that are not utilized and have no educational pathways available for nurses in the Philippine setting.
    I apologize for my use of the term. I used it for lack of something better and it has been misunderstood to mean something different.

    I do not mean administrative positions.

    I just meant that it is something a bit higher up than the entry level positions for new grads.

    New grad positions are not available for Foreign RNs because they are required to have worked for up to 2 years before they will be accepted by a vast majority of hospitals in the USA.

    Therefore the positions that foreign RNs are getting are those positions which the hospital deems a prerequisite of clinical experience which suits the hospital setting.
    Many foreign nurses apply only to get rejected because the experience they have is considered insufficient.

    I just want to dispel the myth that foreign nurses take jobs away from fresh US graduates.
  6. 0
    Quote from Hushdawg
    I'm not saying I agree with this route, I am actually (gasp and shock) in agreement with you on this one.

    USMLE is not exactly difficult on the exam side, but the problem is all the effort and expense that one must go through in order to take the USMLE as a foreign physician.
    For that reason, many MDs choose to second-course as nurses because the same process for taking NCLEX and getting licensed is relatively easier. The goal is to work in the USA for a few years as a nurse and then take USMLE and become physicians.

    Personally I feel that if you are a physician that you should focus on that and just accept the expenses and hassle involved with doing USMLE as a foreigner and this is what I advise when asked.
    But like the old saying goes: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
    As nurse or a patient I would not want a doctor who became a nurse since their heart is in medicine. It is not good for the patients, the staff the work with, the employer will be the looser since once the contract is up they will move on.


    From what I have read the doc uses a credentialing company similar CGFNS to allow them to sit for the USMLE Part One. The other parts include a clinical component which is where the ESL doctors have difficultly. But wouldn't these same people have difficulty communicating as a nurse ? Also the USMLE is not as forgiving as the NCLEX and thanking the test more than once is looked upon as a failure and is a huge roadblock. Once completing residency they are all set and will be making money similar to what they would be making as nurse.

    My point as another poster pointed out the AMA has a very complex process for foreign trained MDs why should nursing be any different. Also the foreign doctors I have seen never had 2 years of Nursing experience.
  7. 0
    I believe the term is "experienced nurse" and according to the academic literature I have reviewed even a season experience foreign nurse needs an orientation similar to a new grad.

    Second seasoned USA nurses are having problems finding positions.
  8. 0
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    From what I have read the doc uses a credentialing company similar CGFNS to allow them to sit for the USMLE Part One. The other parts include a clinical component which is where the ESL doctors have difficultly. But wouldn't these same people have difficulty communicating as a nurse ? Also the USMLE is not as forgiving as the NCLEX and thanking the test more than once is looked upon as a failure and is a huge roadblock. Once completing residency they are all set and will be making money similar to what they would be making as nurse.
    The hurdle for physicians is not usually the EDL situation as most that I encounter speak English fluently and without heavy accent.

    The clinical component is the difficult task since that can only be done in the USA.

    Hence many feel the best option is to go to the USA as a nurse so they may be working while completing USMLE requirements.

    I think it is spurious to state that MD/RNs are less effective than those who are only RNs.
    The level of care and concern will vary from one individual to another no differently than it does with RNs.
  9. 2
    Quote from Hushdawg
    I apologize for my use of the term. I used it for lack of something better and it has been misunderstood to mean something different.

    I do not mean administrative positions.

    I just meant that it is something a bit higher up than the entry level positions for new grads.

    New grad positions are not available for Foreign RNs because they are required to have worked for up to 2 years before they will be accepted by a vast majority of hospitals in the USA.

    Therefore the positions that foreign RNs are getting are those positions which the hospital deems a prerequisite of clinical experience which suits the hospital setting.
    Many foreign nurses apply only to get rejected because the experience they have is considered insufficient.

    I just want to dispel the myth that foreign nurses take jobs away from fresh US graduates.
    Well, we definitely do not want to be spreading myths in this forum. I'll have to agree with you that a nurse from the Philippines who have worked a considerable number of years (2 years maybe) in a tertiary facility (such as PGH, St. Luke's, Heart Center, and other hospitals of similar caliber) are probably good candidates for staff nursing positions in hospitals here in the US. However, regardless of the experience they have accumulated in the Philippines, a good amount of orientation and retraining are still in order for these nurses. There is a big difference in how nursing care is delivered in the US. I know, I know, I shouldn't be one to talk because I've not worked in the Philippines since the mid-nineties. Nevertheless, if I was a new nurse in the US, I would still ask for a thorough orientation (similar to a new grad from a US nursing program) even though I've had years of nursing in the Philippines. I would not want to be treated like I am ready to roll from the get go as I would fear this can be a disaster waiting to happen. This is the sentiment most US nurses feel. If the experienced nurse from the Philippines needs the same amount of orientation once in the US, then, they are no better than new grads who do not need the expense of having visas processed in order to come aboard.
  10. 1
    Quote from Hushdawg
    The hurdle for physicians is not usually the EDL situation as most that I encounter speak English fluently and without heavy accent.
    This is SO not the usual experience. The hospital I work at trains a significant number of international residents, people who come here from many parts of the world. Some of them have such poor English vocabulary and heavy accents that they're almost incomprehensible. This can be a huge problem when there's an urgent situation evolving and the physician cannot make him/herself understood. It certainly makes life difficult for the nurse who has to ask the physician to repeat what has been said 10 times so that it's understood. And that goes for simple things too. When I work a day shift I might interact with as many as a dozen residents and try to interpret as many different accents... Portuguese, Spanish, German, Dutch, Hindi, Chinese, Arabic, Urdu... you get the picture.
    Fiona59 likes this.


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