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Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???



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May 01, 2009 12:16 AM

Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???


Sometimes I just want to pull my hair out! Account exec has been working on getting a patient discharged for the last 3 weeks, daily notes from md says "husband considering stopping dialysis", then, tonight when she does get home--"of course we are continuing dialysis". Patient had dialysis this evening. Admitting orders state "esrd", but there is a note from the AE saying "admit under copd" when copd is only mentioned as a comorbidity. She is on a buttload of medications related to dialysis-renagel, sodium bicarb, meds for htn, etc.

IF patient has been on dialysis for 9 years, had a renal transplant 9 yrs ago that failed, how can I in good conscious admit this patient under copd?

thanks for listening.

linda


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14 Comments
No. 1
from heron
Old May 01, 2009, 08:42 AM

Default Re: Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???
The question is, does the copd meet criteria for hospice admission? That would mean that hospice is on the hook for just meds to treat copd and all the renal-related meds as well as the dialysis itself would be covered by the pt's other insurance. If admitted under esrd, then hospice has to eat the cost of the dialysis, since it's life-extending treatment, so I can see the md wanting to avoid that.

So, how advanced is the copd?
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No. 2
Old May 06, 2009, 09:38 PM

Question Re: Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???
I didn't know you could have someone on dialysis in hospice. I was always told that it was not allowed since it is considered aggressive treatment....
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No. 3
from traumaRUs
Old May 06, 2009, 09:47 PM

Default Re: Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???
Nope - you can be on hospice and still dialyze. I have two current pts considering hospice for metastic Ca but both are ESRD on hemodialysis. Medicare allows this.
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No. 4
from gt4everpn
Old May 06, 2009, 09:47 PM

Default Re: Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???
Seems like some kind of scheme to my by your exec.. the husband wants dialysis stopped but she will still be getting dialysis??? Seems like a plot to keep the patient admitted although she has a terminal illnes (ESRD) they want to keep her for dx of COPD.. more $$$$ for the hospice or less money lost, idk, just my guess.
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No. 5
from gt4everpn
Old May 06, 2009, 09:53 PM

Default Re: Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???
You'd be surprised the things some hospice patients recieve.. I work in hospice from time to time (float through the unit) until now I can't understand why hospice patients are:
1.Hospice with no DNR
2.Life-preserving med (bp meds, IV flds for hydration, etc..)
3. Tube feedings usually at the request of the families in my experience.
Does anyone know why?

Originally Posted by traumaRUs View Post
Nope - you can be on hospice and still dialyze. I have two current pts considering hospice for metastic Ca but both are ESRD on hemodialysis. Medicare allows this.
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No. 6
from AtlantaRN
Old May 06, 2009, 10:32 PM

Default Re: Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???
what really gets me on this one is one of the higher ups in the company chose copd as her terminal diagnosis, not her physician. Physician usually writes "evaluate and treat if appropriate." frankly she has more pointing to chf than copd as I don't have any pft's. I guess it's because she is on more meds for heart failure, and is only on 2 meds for neblulizer? sometimes I just don't get it.

thank you for listening.
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No. 7
from BandEmom
Old May 07, 2009, 02:35 AM
Updated May 07, 2009 at 02:36 AM by BandEmom

Default Re: Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???
gt4everpn,

I think that people who are on hospice with DNR are really just not still there emotionally. Comfort care is acceptable to them but accepting the full implications of DNR is just out of their comfort zones. Some people and families worry that it may compromise their care. Many of them end up changing their code status down the line. Of course, all of my hospice patients are living at home. I can see how it would be much more frustrating to see full code hospice patients in an inpatient setting.
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No. 8
from gt4everpn
Old May 07, 2009, 07:11 PM

Default Re: Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???
And I completely understand and respect the decisions the families and/or patient make, but it does pose such a dilemma for staff members, I haven't been in the situation of a full code on a hospice patient with no DNR, but I did have a patient who was dying and the wife didn't sign a DNR (and not to be mean, she was a hard family member to please), I was advised by my NM to call the wife should he expire or code and ask her what to do because she knew he was dying and might have changed her mind, but thankfully my shift ended and he was still breathing.

Originally Posted by BandEmom View Post
gt4everpn,

I think that people who are on hospice with DNR are really just not still there emotionally. Comfort care is acceptable to them but accepting the full implications of DNR is just out of their comfort zones. Some people and families worry that it may compromise their care. Many of them end up changing their code status down the line. Of course, all of my hospice patients are living at home. I can see how it would be much more frustrating to see full code hospice patients in an inpatient setting.
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No. 9
Old May 07, 2009, 07:22 PM

Default Re: Dialysis 9 yrs, but terminal illness is COPD???
Ya'll have just blown my mind.........I am still reeling from this revelation. Medicare will allow dialysis. WOW. I just had a pt revoke Monday because the doctor was referring him for dialysis.
We had him for COPD.
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