Originally Posted by CharlieRN

The inablity to separate the observer from the phenomenon is only relavent to subatomic physics.
It would certainly be possible to set up a double blind study of magnet therapy.
I have no problem with healing through "placebo effect", or other forms of Subjective effect treatment. I do object to pretending that Objective effects are happening. I also see it as clearly dishonest not to be interested in which kind of medicine we are practicing.
If western medicine is on shaky ground then so is western engineering which is also based on "unreliable science". So I guess the next time you need to go somewhere you should use the reliable methods of travel like astral projection or levitation rather than a train or automobile.

You can object all you want to the "Placebo Effect?

And personally I would love to learn how to levitate or use astral projection for travel, particularly as I never use airlines anymore, not for over 28 yrs now.

But I credit magnets with avoiding Carpal tunnel surgery and also Back surgery, both were highly recommended to me 15 yrs ago and have been avoided with the use of magnets.

Its funny how people scoff at the subjectiveness of magnet therapy while being steadfast supporters of the Subjectiveness of Fibromyalgia

I know nothing about magnet therapy, but I do know doctors and nurses who swear by it, and have become wellness consultants for a Japanese company named Nikken. I am told that Nikken and one of the campuses of the California State University system--it's either UC Davis are UC Irvine--are collaborating on medicla uses for magnet therapy. I don't know if any double blind studies have been done to date, but I think that info might be available on their website www.Nikken.com

Originally Posted by CharlieRN

The inablity to separate the observer from the phenomenon is only relavent to subatomic physics.
It would certainly be possible to set up a double blind study of magnet therapy.
I have no problem with healing through "placebo effect", or other forms of Subjective effect treatment. I do object to pretending that Objective effects are happening. I also see it as clearly dishonest not to be interested in which kind of medicine we are practicing.
If western medicine is on shaky ground then so is western engineering which is also based on "unreliable science". So I guess the next time you need to go somewhere you should use the reliable methods of travel like astral projection or levitation rather than a train or automobile.

No double-blind study is valid if you have to get the consent of adults, therefore they know they are in a study. Don't try to throw physics at me cause I can match you.

zenman

Originally Posted by zenman

No double-blind study is valid if you have to get the consent of adults, therefore they know they are in a study. Don't try to throw physics at me cause I can match you.

So are you denying the validity of double blind studies used by main-line pharmacutical companies and government agencies to determine the effectiveness of medications? Granted the biologic sciences do not attain the level of rigor that physics and chemistry do, none the less carefully structured experiments can and do yield valid information regarding theorys of treatment. With such information we can predict the effectiveness of treatments based on that theory.

All persons who consent to be in a study know is that they are in a study. Neither they nor the staff who administer the meds know if they are given an active ingredient or a neutral placebo.

I am amazed that people involved in a profession based on science can actively deny the basic premises of science, that true theorys must result in reliable predictions of future conditions. Unless rigorous testing is done then the truth of the theory can't be shown.

Magnets are not rare or expensive. It should not be difficult for a simple test of their effectiveness as treatment tools to be conducted.

For example; If the claim is that they improve circulation, then the quality of circulation needs to be measured. Circulation quality can be measured by someting as simple as a skin temperature thermometer, or capillary refill time, or a variety of more complex devises. A large sample of test subjects need to be found, say the freshman class of a Nursing school, and they need to be tested, when exposed to a magnet and when they only think they have been exposed to a magnet, and when they believe they have not been exposed. The test protocol should be repeated with a "sick" population who have known circulatory problems. If there is a positve effect on circulation, that is greater than chance would predict, then the magnet has been shown to be probably effective.

I apologize if it seems I am talking down to you but this is simple stuff. It is not rocket science, but it is science!

Originally Posted by CharlieRN

So are you denying the validity of double blind studies used by main-line pharmacutical companies and government agencies to determine the effectiveness of medications?

Double blind studies are the best we have right now, I'll agree to that. However, it sounds as if you are putting blind faith in the government and pharmaceutical companies. The people in these organizations are...people, with all the faults that people have. Remember their interests and the money and people they control. I've been in studies...both sides...and remember one that was based on patient info collected by nurses...nurses who were short staffed and cutting corners. There have been many pharmaceutical scandals.

Granted the biologic sciences do not attain the level of rigor that physics and chemistry do, none the less carefully structured experiments can and do yield valid information regarding theorys of treatment. With such information we can predict the effectiveness of treatments based on that theory.

Yes, medicine does limp far behind the advances made in other fields of scientific endeavor, particularly since its knowledge is based on parts and isolated aspects. If a physicist were to attend a medical conference, he would be flabbergasted and probably think that he was thrown back in time!

All persons who consent to be in a study know is that they are in a study. Neither they nor the staff who administer the meds know if they are given an active ingredient or a neutral placebo.

True, and that is what "limits" the study, they know they are in one. We know little about the mind and consciousness. So, think for a moment, if you were a patient with say cardiac disease and consented to be in a study. You are going to hope that you get the "real" thing. That alone will cause changes. You doctor may like you and hope that you are getting the "real" thing. Whether you do or not, his attitude will affect you and your condition. Kinda messes things up doesn't it?

I am amazed that people involved in a profession based on science can actively deny the basic premises of science, that true theorys must result in reliable predictions of future conditions. Unless rigorous testing is done then the truth of the theory can't be shown.

I don't deny the basic premise of science. I just recognize its limitations. How many studies get opposite results...sometimes after years of people taking a drug that was shown to be ok? Now I hear Vioxx has been shown to increase your risk of heart attack X 3.

Magnets are not rare or expensive. It should not be difficult for a simple test of their effectiveness as treatment tools to be conducted.

For example; If the claim is that they improve circulation, then the quality of circulation needs to be measured. Circulation quality can be measured by someting as simple as a skin temperature thermometer, or capillary refill time, or a variety of more complex devises. A large sample of test subjects need to be found, say the freshman class of a Nursing school, and they need to be tested, when exposed to a magnet and when they only think they have been exposed to a magnet, and when they believe they have not been exposed. The test protocol should be repeated with a "sick" population who have known circulatory problems. If there is a positve effect on circulation, that is greater than chance would predict, then the magnet has been shown to be probably effective.

You'd probably never find anyone willing to put money into the project. And again you have the limitations of the scientific process.

I apologize if it seems I am talking down to you but this is simple stuff. It is not rocket science, but it is science!

No problem. But...in it's simplicity it can get complicated.

Originally Posted by CharlieRN

If anyone can offer any solid scientific evidence, ie: a double blind study done by an independent agent, please post it. Weezie asked 9 mouths ago and only anacdotal evidence has been offered.

Read the replies. I posted a link in this thread to results from a double-blind study on magnetic therapy from Baylor College of Medicine, 9 months ago.



Alfano AP, Taylor AG, Foresman PA, et al. Static magnetic fields for treatment of fibromyalgia: a randomized controlled trial. J Altern Complement Med. 2001;7:53–64.

Brown CS, Ling FW, Wan JY, et al. Efficacy of static magnetic field therapy in chronic pelvic pain: A double-blind pilot study. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2002;187:1581-1587.

Brown CS, Parker N, Ling F, et al. Effect of magnets on chronic pelvic pain. Obstet Gynecol. 2000;95:S29.

Carter R, Hall T, Aspy CB, et al. Effectiveness of magnet therapy for treatment of wrist pain attributed to carpal tunnel syndrome. J Fam Pract. 2002;51:38–40.

Colbert AP, Markov MS, Banerji M, et al. Magnetic mattress pad use in patients with fibromyalgia: a randomized double-blind pilot study. J Back Musculoskeletal Rehabilitation. 1999;13:19–31.

Collacot EA, Zimmerman JT, White DW, et al. Bipolar permanent magnets for the treatment of chronic low back pain: a pilot study. JAMA. 2000;283:1322–1325.

Frankel R, Liburdy R. Biological effects of static magnetic fields. In: Polk C, Postow E, eds. Handbook of Biological Effects of Electromagnetic Fields. 2nd ed. Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press; 1996.

Gmitrov J, Ohkubo C, Okano H. Effect of 0.25 T static magnetic field on microcirculation in rabbits. Bioelectromagnetics. 2002;23:224–229.

Hinman MR, Ford J, Heyl H. Effects of static magnets on chronic knee pain and physical function: a double-blind study. Altern Ther Health Med. 2002;8:50–55.

Holcomb RR, Parker RA, Harrison MS. Biomagnetics in the treatment of human pain: past, present, future. Environ Med. 1991;8:24–30.

Hong CZ, Lin JC, Bender LF, et al. Magnetic necklace: its therapeutic effectiveness on neck and shoulder pain. Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1982;63:462–466.

Man D, Man B, Plosker H. The influence of permanent magnetic field therapy on wound healing in suction lipectomy patients: A double-blind study. Plast Reconstr Surg. 1999;104:2261–2266.

Martel GF, Andrews SC, Roseboom CG. Comparison of static and placebo magnets on resting forearm blood flow in young, healthy men. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2002;32:518–524.

Segal NA, Toda Y, Huston J, et al. Two configurations of static magnetic fields for treating rheumatoid arthritis of the knee: double-blind clinical trial. Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 2001;82:1453–1460.

Vallbona C, Hazlewood CF, Jurida G. Response of pain to static magnetic fields in postpolio patients: a double blind pilot study. Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1997;78:1200–1203.

Weintraub M. Magnetic bio-stimulation in painful diabetic peripheral neuropathy: a novel intervention-a randomized, double-placebo crossover study. Am J Pain Manag. 1999;9:8–17.



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I would not advise a patient to use magnets but once i was having a lot of trouble with an arthritic kknee someone advised me to use a magnet....when you are in pain you will try anything up to and including snake oil.....i ididn't have any strong magnets expect for some old pacemaker magnets which i couldn't very weell tape to my knee so.....please nobody laugh...i taped some refirgerator magnets to my knee and in three days the pain was gone...conincidence??perhaps but i am happy that the pain left and has not returned...several years now as to OP question no i don/t know of any specific studies...if anyone has any infor i would find it interesting love you all

zenman

Originally Posted by teeituptom

Yo Zenman

Sometimes you just plain think too much..


Life is much simpler with faith and acceptance, that if something works why worry it to death.

Zenman you are clearly thoughtful about your awareness of the limitations of the scientific method. I have no problem with that. Have you read "Science is a Sacred Cow"?

Helllllo Nurse has answered with a list of actual studies. I wish he/she had indicated which supported the use of magnets and which did not. Just cause I'm lazy and don't want to look them all up.

But check out the quote at the top of this page. "life is much simpler with faith and acceptance,... "

How can you argue with that? Life is simpler that way. Also shorter, poorer and less comfortable. Just believe what the nice people tell you and everything will be ok. Just give them your money. Its perfectly safe. No one would lie to you for profit. The psychic surgeon really does pull your cancer right out without an incision. A piece of red "kabbalic" string will cure you if you tie it on your wrist. Your CD will sound better if it has a piece of sparkly plastic tape stuck on the lable. Your electronic equipment will work better with a special stone put on it. A touch therapist will heal you by manipulating your aura. A homeopath will cure you with medicine that has less active ingredient than tap water. If you still have any problems an astrologer will make your decisions for you.

This way of thinking was tried before and most people were quite comfortable with it. It is much simpler. It was the dark ages.

Arrrhh!!! It took us a hundred thousand years to learn how to use science and in a couple hundred it has taken us from horse back to walking on the moon. Now people want to throw that away. I repeat, Arrrhh!!!

Interesting, at the bottom of this page, are two links for Magnet Therapy. Has anyone looked at them?

I have not used magnets personally, although I do hear people swear by them. I do have concerns about healthcare workers, especially ER or EMS wearing them at work. The Vagal Nerve Stimulator (VNS) is becoming a more common treatment for seizure disorder. The device is triggered by a magnet and prolonged exposure to magnets will shut the device off. Wearing a strong magnet on your wrist might affect your patient with a VNS.