Question for RN's reagrding CHF in LTC

CoffeeRTC, BSN, RN · Feb 7, 2005

First Hugs to you and family.

Why didn't the LTC pick up on this? (I know you prob asked this)

Do they notify POA with any changes in condiiton asap? they should. DNRs are treated and shouldn't be ignored. They missed the ball when the lasix wasn't reordered. I would prob ask doc/ family/ resident if they want hospital treatment if not we would treat at the nursing home. She should definalty be on I/O, does she need a fluid restriction? Chest Xray and diruetics. Good skin care is a must, too. As far as the mood changes/confusion/ or depression. Gosh she's been thru alot. Might be medically related and could take a few months to resolve. Sometimes an antidepressant could help and some docs might order aricept or namenda for memory, but I would be hesitant to add more meds.

I would ask why the nurses aren't being more agressive or at least letting the POA know what is going on. ( this is a regulation) Also...tell POA to call the doc directly.

Hope you get some answers or action!

southern_rn_brat · Feb 7, 2005

I would suggest she have a meeting set up with the care plan team and the doctor to discuss the situation. Then you have the whole team there at once to ask questions and get some answers.

Tell her to demand it immediately!

begalli · Feb 7, 2005

Thank you both for your thoughtful replies.

I probably didn't make it clear, but my mom is the POA. I didn't find out until yesterday just how sick my grandmother is when my mom starting talking about grandma "wetting her socks." I wasn't that surprised with grandma's altered mental state given all the changes in environment, the GI bleed, the UTI, and huge emotional blow due to the loss of my grandpa and my dad. This is what has been most bothersome to my mom and what we have been talking about for several weeks. Now that I know more of the story....

I guess I better get on the ball. My poor mom . She has reached her limit emotionally, mentally, physically, and humanly. I think she may have overlooked or has been in denial about some of the obvious symptoms grandma has because so much of what is happening to my grandmother now is VERY much the way my dad looked when he died.

I think I just needed some confirmation about the feelings I was having about this. I so wish I could be there. I will have to see how I can help from across the country. This has been a bank-busting, tumultuous year.

southern_rn_brat · Feb 7, 2005

The more I think about it....if it were my family member, I would just call them and have her sent to the ER for a complete eval. I would find out what really is going on with my mom and I wouldnt wait another day.

I've been thinking about this since I read your first post and how I would handle this at work (I do LTC).

She needs answers and it sounds like your grandmother needs closer observation until her edema resolves. Your mom is the POA. She can have this done today.

I hope your grandmother gets better soon!

begalli · Feb 7, 2005

Thanks brat! :)

I'm calling mom right now.

begalli · Feb 7, 2005

*sigh* Mom called LTC after I called her. They told her that gramdma's not in congestive heart failure? They said she's on a couple of GI meds, cardizem, lopressor, synthroid, and 40mg lasix/day (no potassium!?). They did chest xray and said it was okay. Didn't draw labs, but will next week?

So I asked mom if she thought that they might talk to me. Nope, didn't think so, HIPPA. Then I asked her when she was going over there today and to please ask grandma if she would give permission to have them talk with me. Grandma was more than happy BUT the RN who needed to fill out the paperwork for this "permission" was in a meeting and mom had to leave for her own DR appt and grandma needed to lie down.

Boy, I'm feeling kind of dumb here knowing nothing about how LTC works.

Mom's report on grandma today: Changed soaked socks once while she was there for less than an hour, still very edematous. Grandma just got done with OT and was asking for her 02 and to lie down because she was "just so tired."

I dunno, sounds like CHF to me. What the heck else could it be? I read an article recently in Critical Care RN where it talks about the chest xray not being a great predictor of heart failure. Something about the lymphatic system increases drainage and so the picture may look relatively dry and upon auscultation, no crackles are present. Sounds to me the only diagnostic criteria this doctor used was a chest xray, perhaps listened to her lungs and examined her legs while she was still lying in bed very early in the am (apparently the weepiness goes away when she's supine all night long, but not the pitting edema).

I plan to call and just let my feelings, my thoughts, and my experience be known to the nurse (in a nice professional way of course). I don't expect her to tell me anything, I just want it to be known what I'm thinking. I'll call my mom when she returns from her Dr appt and see if anything comes of it. If nothing does, then mom and I have to have a serious discussion about what to do next.

Thanks for letting me bounce this around here.

begalli · Feb 7, 2005

AH HA! FINALLY some satisfaction.

The RN who cares for my grandmother directly was able to get the permission she needed to talk with me. She agreed completely with everything I had a concern with and said it was her nursing supervisor, going on the docs opinion, who was holding back on getting my grandmother more difinitive care. This RN flat out said, if it were my mother or grandmother, I'd....

Grandma's on her way to the ER.

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Feb 7, 2005

Yay! Just finished reading this and I agree, a trip to the ER is certainly warranted.

Have them do a BNP. Have had an amazing number of folks who have clean CXRs but the BNP level is way out there. Here's more about the BNP from The Cleveland Clinic website: http://www.clevelandclinic.org/heartcenter/pub/guide/tests/labtests/bnp.htm

BNP levels below 100 pg/mL indicate no heart failure

BNP levels of 100-300 suggest heart failure is present

BNP levels above 300 pg/mL indicate mild heart failure

BNP levels above 600 pg/mL indicate moderate heart failure.

BNP levels above 900 pg/mL indicate severe heart failure.

Here's an article on the topic from Reviews in Cardiovascular Medicine, since CHF is so common in the elderly:

http://www.medreviews.com/pdfs/articles/RICM_42_72.pdf

begalli · Feb 7, 2005

Thanks Angie O.

I also read about BNP as well as "proportional pulse pressure" in that journal article I mentioned ealier. I asked the LTC nurse about this, but she didn't know what I was talking about.

There is something that's really bothering me though right now. When I spoke to the nurse about how my mom goes about getting my grandmother to the hospital, she gave me all the info, again collaborating all of my concerns, BUT said (paraphrased), tell your mom when she talks to the nursing supervisor here not to say that I told you any of this or that I agreed with you that your grandmother needs to go to the hospital.

WHAT?!

She urged me to get my mom to take grandma to the ER and have her checked out. I wonder why she would not advocate for her patient on her own? Is there some loss a LTC place takes when a patient goes out to the hospital? I can't imagine this nonaction by an RN when the RN feels that something is wrong.

It makes me worry that in the future things will not be addressed and it will be up to my investigative work of gently coaxing information out of my mom about my grandmother's condition, from 2000 miles away!

Anyway, haven't heard from my mom yet since they went. I can just see the poor thing now, sitting in the ED for hours. NOT something she wants or needs to be doing right now, but does it anyway out of love for her mother and the fear of losing her too.

AlixCoastRN · Feb 7, 2005

I have worked at 2 facilities in the last 5-6 years - sometimes its like trying to pull teeth to get the doc to respond to anything, other times it is quite easy - depending on the doc. I have had families take their loved one to the ER (at my encouragement) themselves, especially if the doc involved was not listening to me or was not even bothering to call back. DNR does not mean 'do not treat'. A lot of nurses and docs need reminding of this. I hope all goes well for you, your mom and your grandma.

medsurgnurse, RN · Feb 7, 2005

Thanks Angie O.
I also read about BNP as well as "proportional pulse pressure" in that journal article I mentioned ealier. I asked the LTC nurse about this, but she didn't know what I was talking about.
There is something that's really bothering me though right now. When I spoke to the nurse about how my mom goes about getting my grandmother to the hospital, she gave me all the info, again collaborating all of my concerns, BUT said (paraphrased), tell your mom when she talks to the nursing supervisor here not to say that I told you any of this or that I agreed with you that your grandmother needs to go to the hospital.
WHAT?!
She urged me to get my mom to take grandma to the ER and have her checked out. I wonder why she would not advocate for her patient on her own? Is there some loss a LTC place takes when a patient goes out to the hospital? I can't imagine this nonaction by an RN when the RN feels that something is wrong.
It makes me worry that in the future things will not be addressed and it will be up to my investigative work of gently coaxing information out of my mom about my grandmother's condition, from 2000 miles away!
Anyway, haven't heard from my mom yet since they went. I can just see the poor thing now, sitting in the ED for hours. NOT something she wants or needs to be doing right now, but does it anyway out of love for her mother and the fear of losing her too.

yes, the facility may loose money. After you grandmother is managed in the hospital, do not send her back to that facility. Her legs are weeping and they said she is not in heart failure. hello! there's more than one kind of heart failure. Once the dependant edema gets that bad she could get cellulitis. The facility nurse could have at least contacted the physician when the edema started.