Brainless People! - page 2

Need some advice on something.... I have a rezzie who smokes, is on oxygen continously, and has been told by MD that he is not medically stable to drive his vehicle, but still does. We have tried to... Read More

  1. by   LauraF, RN
    Quote from cateccrn
    Ok, you have a resident that is intractable, so you TRY to do what is necessary to get the MD to sign a statement banning him from driving. He already has voiced his opinion,get it in writing.That's all you need to solve the problem. Grow some guts, girl. How will you feel when this resident goes out to poker night and kills a family of five because of his hypoxia?
    And how will your family feel when they are impoverished due to lawsuits you could have prevented by notifying the Ombudsmon and the State Board of your concerns?
    You CAN refuse to let him go, as an RN, you have legal and justifiable powers as an expert to intervene if you feel necessary.
    Just try answering this in a courtroom: "You knew the pt. had COPD, was dependant on oxygen,knew the resident physician had declared him unsafe to drive, but let him leave anyway".
    My bet is that you would be on the hook for a million dollars.

    The state would not allow this. You CANNOT refuse to let them leave the facility unless they are a ward of the state, and the proper paperwork is done for them to be committed. Then if committed, more so would be psych not LTC. You cannot keep someone against their will, unless they have been declared by the courts as incompitent.
  2. by   mickeypat
    1) I am only an LPN. I have been told by the RN/Case Managers and Administration that Social Services is taking care of the problem. I can only document, voice my opinion and pray to God that no one is harmed in the meantime.

    2.) We have been trying to get the MD to sign papers stating that this resident is not well enough to be driving, but he does not respond to our faxes or telephone calls to address the issue. For most of the docs we have, it seems as if the rezzies don't really matter to them anymore...

    Like I have previously stated, my license is not worth losing for this facility and the docs, cause I "let" someone do something that is against medical advice.

    To answer the question on the big O2 tanks, no they are not secured down, they are only held in place with bungee straps and after what I saw yesterday, they are not very stable!!! The way they are sitting, it looks as if they are pointed straight at my house!
  3. by   KellieNurse06
    Quote from ginger58
    I'm talking about a tank flying off the truck or falling. There was an OR patient killed on the OR table when a tank fell over and it blasted through the room like a missile.
    I find that a little hard to believe.....was the tank punctured? I open up oxygen tanks full blast to release whatever is left so when it gets picked up by the medical truck it's totally empty.........never had a tank fly around, and never heard of that occuring either.....It's extremely loud though...we can actually hear it whisteling when we are inside & the tanks are sitting outside for pick up......The only time I ever heard of a tank doing that was at a hospital in my state..because a kid went for an MRI & someone forgot the tank couldn't go into the MRI room......so the magnetic field torpedoed the tank which hit the kid and he died, it made the news & everything..I think it was in Boston...........That sounds like the thing you mentioned ....
    Last edit by KellieNurse06 on Sep 14, '06
  4. by   KellieNurse06
    Quote from Marie_LPN
    That's what i thought as well. Maybe this is the man's way of retaining control over his life.
    Exactly!!! You are right on!!! This is probably the one thing he is able to control so he does it.......you are right on!!
  5. by   MedSurgeMess
    Quote from KellieNurse06
    I find that a little hard to believe.....was the tank punctured? I open up oxygen tanks full blast to release whatever is left so when it gets picked up by the medical truck it's totally empty.........never had a tank fly around, and never heard of that occuring either.....It's extremely loud though...we can actually hear it whisteling when we are inside & the tanks are sitting outside for pick up......The only time I ever heard of a tank doing that was at a hospital in my state..because a kid went for an MRI & someone forgot the tank couldn't go into the MRI room......so the magnetic field torpedoed the tank which hit the kid and he died, it made the news & everything..I think it was in Boston...........That sounds like the thing you mentioned ....
    O2 tanks can explode if banged around because they are compressed, they have given this safety warning more than once at my facility. Also gave it at the factory where I worked many years ago....Never let a compressed tank of ANYTHING get banged or dropped, as contents become unstable...
  6. by   DeLySh
    Quote from LPN,RNNow
    The state would not allow this. You CANNOT refuse to let them leave the facility unless they are a ward of the state, and the proper paperwork is done for them to be committed. Then if committed, more so would be psych not LTC. You cannot keep someone against their will, unless they have been declared by the courts as incompitent.

    You know, I was thinking this, too. Furthermore, I wonder if the OP tried to get his license revoked on her own as an LPN without a doc to back up in writing that he is not be driving, couldn't a legally zealous family try to get her for harrassment and so forth? Anyone know? Sounds to me like there are not many options for her alone. :angryfire

    DeLySh
    Last edit by DeLySh on Sep 15, '06
  7. by   Balder_LPN
    Quote from mickeypat
    ...we need to have the MD sign a statement that he is not able to drive. ...
    so, has the MD been asked to get this done. How about get it the form (or write the statement) and then give it to the md to sign?
  8. by   kristen3g3tp8
    Maybe he's just ready to go.... and wants to "live his final years." You have taught him what is right and what is wrong... it is okay to worry about him, but in the end... if smoking makes him happy, and he understands the consequences... let it be. I know many elderly people who are dying from lung cancer, but continue to smoke. They are not stupid! They know that smoking causes cancer, and they know it will finally kill them, but in their minds the damage has been done. As for the driving... that is a legal issue, if the doc takes away his drivers license and he is explained why it is important for his saftey and the saftey of others to not drive... what else can you do?? Just please... don't call this man stupid becuase he doesnt want to be "saved"......
  9. by   mickeypat
    Yes, we have asked the MD to sign these papers, but he hasn't...This doc has a tendancy to take forever to do anything! We have also talked to his case worker and she keeps saying that he has rights to do this. I agree, he does have rights, but not the right to go out and kill someone just to feed his habit!

    I also wonder to if he is doing this because he does have a death wish. I have a hard time with people who have mental illnesses and knowing how to deal with them!

    And I also worry because I think that whoever gets hurt if something happens and they come back at the home, and I have to testify in court, how do I answer the questions.....like a previous poster stated... when I know he isn't to be driving. Alot of guilt for me, a chance of losing my license....
    Last edit by mickeypat on Sep 15, '06
  10. by   ginger58
    [QUOTE]
    Quote from KellieNurse06
    I find that a little hard to believe.....was the tank punctured? I open up oxygen tanks full blast to release whatever is left so when it gets picked up by the medical truck it's totally empty.
    I'm talking about the valve being knocked off in an accident with another vehicle or them getting loose in the back of his truck. These tanks aren't empty in his pickup, they're for his use. It's not puncturing but the valve being disturbed. If the accident involved fire the tank would support combustion.

    Mickeypat answered my question to her about the tanks:
    To answer the question on the big O2 tanks, no they are not secured down, they are only held in place with bungee straps and after what I saw yesterday, they are not very stable!!! The way they are sitting, it looks as if they are pointed straight at my house!
  11. by   snowfreeze
    It's not illegal to be crazy or stupid, it is illegal to break the law. If he is breaking a law he can be arrested, if he is just stupid...well, i guess he has to continue being stupid until he breaks a law.
  12. by   subee
    [QUOTE=mickeypat]1) I am only an LPN. I have been told by the RN/Case Managers and Administration that Social Services is taking care of the problem. I can only document, voice my opinion and pray to God that no one is harmed in the meantime.

    2.) We have been trying to get the MD to sign papers stating that this resident is not well enough to be driving, but he does not respond to our faxes or telephone calls to address the issue. For most of the docs we have, it seems as if the rezzies don't really matter to them anymore...

    Like I have previously stated, my license is not worth losing for this facility and the docs, cause I "let" someone do something that is against medical advice.

    To answer the question on the big O2 tanks, no they are not secured down, they are only held in place with bungee straps and after what I saw yesterday, they are not very stable!!! The way they are sitting, it looks as if they are pointed straight at my house![/QUOTE



    How about notifying the state trooper's office? Send the report in writing with a cc. to your motor vehicles department. They will then be obligated to investigate the situation.
  13. by   ktwlpn
    Quote from mickeypat
    Need some advice on something.... I have a rezzie who smokes, is on oxygen continously, and has been told by MD that he is not medically stable to drive his vehicle, but still does. We have tried to explain to him that he is not to be doing this, he has been told repeatedly by the doc to not do this, also. We have even talked to law enforcement about it also, they told us that we need to have the MD sign a statement that he is not able to drive. Oh, by the way, he has 2 big O2 tanks in the back of his pick up. He did agree at one point in time to give us his keys, but he got them back somehow and won't give them back. This person likes to sign himself out, go get his money from the county and then go and gamble itaway, and buy cigarettes. We have talked to our social service people, but not much is being done with it.
    Also, he is going outside to smoke with his O2 on! Talk about a huge lawsuit waiting to happen! Hope I'm not there when he blows up the place.
    My issue is this.... I won't put my name on his sign out sheet, because I feel that I'm giving him permission to go, but then I'm told I can't refuse to let him go, even tho I know he is not medically stable enough to be doing this.

    Just need some advice and to vent. My license is not worth losing because of his stupidity!
    If he is deemed competent then he does have the right to leave the facility and join the thousands of others out there endangering our lives on the roads.AARP is a powerful political force-most doctors don't want to be involved in taking away a person's license due to the threat of legal repercussions.My point is-he is one of many.Doesn't your sign-out sheet state that the "signee" is responsible for the safety and well being of the person being signed out? He is taking the responsibility for himself...Check his chart-if social service has documented that they have advised him regarding the concerns you can do the same when he signs out and write a nurse's note stating so...Believe me-social services probably knows what can be done legally-they are "doing nothing" because nothing can be done.He has rights. You are not "giving him permission" to go out...He does not need it.As I suggested-check the paper work he has to complete prior to his leave-talk to social services about your concern.Our LOA slips clearly state that the home is not responsible for the resident when they are taken out of the facility.Maybe they will work out a different sign out sheet for him to make sure the home and nursing staff are covered....

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